Author Topic: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century  (Read 16000 times)

Offline bgf

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2011, 10:40:55 PM »
One more consideration, that I was reluctant to bring up until Daryl touched on it.  The depth of rifling may have been substantially more shallow in early days.  We know they favored 1:48 twists at times as well.  This means that a thinner patch might work as well as our thicker patches in deeper rifling.  It might also favor lighter loads than we need.  Just a thought.

Daryl

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2011, 03:27:58 AM »
One more consideration, that I was reluctant to bring up until Daryl touched on it.  The depth of rifling may have been substantially more shallow in early days.  We know they favored 1:48 twists at times as well.  This means that a thinner patch might work as well as our thicker patches in deeper rifling.  It might also favor lighter loads than we need.  Just a thought.

Not sure about this - every original I've seen the muzzle of, had deep rifling and more times than not, narrow grooves and wide lands - that's the fact part.

My speculation for that is that a narrow rifling cutter would cut those grooves faster than a wide one would cut deep grooves. Why deep grooves? -  The deep grooves were probably necessary due to rapid wear/rusting of the soft iron barrels over what we'd call a short period of time.  This would extend the useful life before they needed to be 'freshed' out.  Deeper grooves would thus hold their accuracy over a longer period of time than would shallow rifling due to taking longer to 'wear' (through rust or actual shooting, which probably never happened) - again, my speculation only.   More spec. - deep grooves would allow the use of the thicker materials, animal skins, muslin, or lindsay-woolsey-type cloth with perhaps an undersized ball and still probably shoot as well or better than a smoothbore - certainly at woods ranges and out to 100 yards or more.

The common round ball for the .54 rifles, was the 'trade' or military sized ball of only .520" to .525" in diameter.  Perhaps this is why original Hawken rifles were spoken of as being .53 calibre, to shoot the 'trade' ball? Perhaps calling them .53 calibre was a mistake, I don't know - maybe they wer in fact, .54 as many think.

The .54 military rifle had a normally 5 groove rifling - but I don't know their depth, with some European round ball rifles having up to 12 grooves which appeared to be quite deep.  The more grooves, the better the 'hold' on the ball. The deeper the grooves, the thicker the cloth (leather) that could be used.

We do know by the mid 1800's, there was a push (Forsythe etc) away from the trend of faster & faster yet deep rifling, to very much slower shallow rifling, which shows us prior to that, the tendency was ion fact, towards deeper, rather than shallower grooves.  This was England, however - what happened here at the same time, I don't know.  He did note in his book, that the deep 'polygrooved' barrels of the American longrifles, that shot so splendidly at longer range - nearly flat to 100 yards with amazing accuracy to 300yards with what to him, were round balls of otherwise, miserably small size. Unfortunately, I don't think he touched on rifling types, but those,  of course, we have the pleasure of being able to view personally.

That 40 or 50 pound chunk gun at Dixon's I saw and hefted, appeared to be close to .60 cal and have rifling that looked like the receptor end for Chevy driveshaft- it had to be .020" deep, maybe deeper & had narrow grooves, wide lands and THIS was a MATCH rifle, pure and simple- kinda opposite to what we might use today.  How would it shoot, I don't know, but would have loved to clean her up and find out. 

Deep grooves require thick materials and I think perhaps thicker more open weave cloths were in greater abundance 'back then' than thinner tough ones like linen?   O'course, Silk will an extra 40 yards - but perhaps only in the mind of a screen writer in Hollywood?

Offline bgf

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2011, 04:22:44 AM »
Daryl,
Good points.  The lands are noticeably wider than the grooves on the originals I've seen when I noticed, but I'm not sure about the groove depth -- I'll make a point of looking at that next time I get a chance.  I was speculating that they might not have rifled to as great a depth because it would save effort (and material for the eventual freshing), but that appears not necessarily to be true.  In part, also, I was assuming that the need for frequent freshening might have been the result of shallow rifling.

In addition, what effect does the width of the grooves have on the patch?  I agree that deeper grooves generally require a thicker patch, but I'm having a hard time figuring out whether narrow grooves would favor a thick or thin patch, and as you point out, there is the separate but related issue of tightly woven versus loosely woven.

Add to that the fact that some or all of these things almost certainly varied from early to late Flint era and later, and a there is material for a full-scale study.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2011, 04:54:16 AM »
I'm not ready for a shroud just yet! I've got a knee that's ready to die, but the rest of me is still kicking. I saved it FROM burial, not FOR burial.  ;D

I've wondered a bit about patching. I hear of guys--and I've done it my self--who take a micrometer with them to the fabric store to measure the cloth to the nearest thousandth. Seems a thoroughly modern way of approaching the problem. I'm guessing that, fabric or leather, they'd have grabbed what they had that was close to right and hauled off and used it. I also can't imagine that fabric production in, say, 1776 was anything like as finely done as post-industrialization. But I don't know much about commercial weaving and spinning 250 years ago.  :-\

It's a looooong time since I've been accused of youth, Roger!



I dunno about fabric quality. I would bet its a tossup maybe the old linen winning.
People have been making very high quality line for far longer than they have been making firearms.

From http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/flax.htm
The linen they produced could be exceedingly delicate. By 3000 BCE the Egyptian weavers were capable of weaving the finest of cloth with 64 warp threads and 48 weft threads per centimetre. About 6th dynasty (ca 2100 BCE) cloth it was said, it was so fine it could be pulled through a signet ring, a similar claim was made by Pliny concerning first millennium linen [3]. During the 11th dynasty the width of the cloth measured 160 to 180 cm.

Did they do this in the 18th century? Maybe not but very high thread count linens have been mentioned.
Audubon states that Boone used 600 thread count linen for patches.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2011, 05:00:10 AM »
Gentlemen,

I agree with Daryl...the old timers were more savvy than we generally give them credit for. Remember, these were times when a good marksman had very important standing in his community, more so on the frontier. Accurate shooting just doesn't happen, then or now. Also, these were the days before the myriad  of diversions/entertainment that we enjoy (?) today. Rifle matches were an important form of entertainment. People took them very seriously and they didn't shoot them for fun...wagers were the order of the day. Men took pride in their shooting ability and weren't afraid to back it up with hard money.

One did not bet money, or stake a reputation on a rifle that he loaded indifferently. I think if we could go back in time we would be surprised at the pains frontier riflemen took loading their firearms.

I, too, would like to extend an invitation to those who adhere to the "any old patch that loads easy" philosophy to come and shoot one of our old-time turkey matches at Cody. They are pretty "correct"...off the plank at 60 yards or offhand at 35, out of the pouch, shoot the target with no foolin' around. After Dan Phariss took our money last week we could use a new influx of capital.

Steve
Hey!
I didn't take all of it.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Kermit

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #30 on: March 14, 2011, 06:34:38 AM »
Artist's linen canvas. For example:

http://www.dickblick.com/products/blick-raw-belgian-linen-canvas-blankets/

http://www.utrechtart.com/dsp_view_products.cfm?classID=1313&subclassID=131311

When you look online, rolls mean just that. You are buying a LOT. "Blankets" in the above link means it's a chunk cut off of a roll. They'll tell you the length of the cut and the width of the fabric. Even these can be a lot. There are MANY on-line sources.

As you can see from this link, this stuff varies a lot in weight, from 5 to 12 ounce. If you want to buy on-line, most suppliers will send you samples. They are small and unwashed, but will give you something to go on.

I have artist's linen that I bought years ago and used for garments. I still have quite a bit, and am still using the scraps from pattern cutout for patches. I just went upstairs to the trunk where it's stored with my mic and checked it. Of two different batches, one fairly loosely woven of coarser threads, and the other tighter of finer threads, BOTH measured right on .016, which is what I thought I remembered.

The price of this stuff can scare you a bit. Lately I've seen it $25 to $40 a yard, but you have to pay attention to the width so you know what it costs per square yard or foot. Both of the batches I bought came from local sources. One was an arts/crafts store and the other was a JoAnn Fabrics. You have to ask for it. MAKE VERY SURE YOU MAKE IT CLEAR YOU WANT UNPRIMED CANVAS ! It's not with all the garment fabric. And it's not the thin pretty blouse/shirt/bridal sort of linen that's bleached and dyed and VERY thin.

This linen is tough stuff. I have some salvaged cotton ticking that my fowling piece seems to like. My others either don't care or prefer the linen, so that's what I mostly use.
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

mjm46@bellsouth.net

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2011, 05:13:22 PM »
Those prices seem really high. At $25-$80 for 88" x 36" you can almost by Chamois skins at the car supply store and make leather patches.  ;D

Birdhunter

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2011, 06:43:39 PM »
It also bring up the subject about how tight the patch & ball combo was.
I'll wager it was alot looser than we use now with our consistant thickness patch material.
Curt

Daryl

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2011, 07:01:23 PM »
I agree, Kurt- for most shooters. Some knew the value of a tight ball and patch - need and materials at hand would dictate what was used.  There were 'trget shooting' clubs in the early 1800's - and we know of target shooting back in the 1700's- prior to the Revolution.  Target shooters do not put up with poor shooting rifles. Every time I comprimise on the snuggness of a combination, I lose accuracy. That is not something I will put up with.

John Henry

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #34 on: April 20, 2011, 12:02:48 AM »
I recall an article in Muzzle Blasts back in the 60's about using fish skin as patch material.  Makes sense that uniform thickness would be obtained from a fairly uniform size fish.  Didn't say catfish, bass (scales removed) or whatever or how to cure it.  Perhaps one of you fishermen out there would give it a look-see.

Daryl

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #35 on: April 20, 2011, 05:00:45 PM »
I recall an article in Muzzle Blasts back in the 60's about using fish skin as patch material.  Makes sense that uniform thickness would be obtained from a fairly uniform size fish.  Didn't say catfish, bass (scales removed) or whatever or how to cure it.   Perhaps one of you fishermen out there would give it a look-see.

It would take one of those huge 50 pound Oklahoma noodled cats to give enough material to be worth while.
I think a trip to the sewing centre for a few meters or yards of mattress ticking or 10oz. denim is a mite easier.

Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2011, 05:26:12 PM »
Fish skin?  Really?  But hey, eel skin is readily available, for those that just have to try every patch combination! 

blunderbuss

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2011, 12:39:01 AM »
I noticed while shooting my .577 Jaeger with a 1-48 twist seven grove barrel that using a pillow ticking patch if I used 65 gr ffg the patch was just fine, using 70g ffg the patch would fray alittle and if I used 75 g ffg it would tear it to pieces and the ball would chase scenery. Then I remembered that many Jaegers were found to have leather patches in the butt traps. This is just a thought and I have never tried it but could it be that one could get more velocity (by using more powder) from a 1-48 twist using a leather patch? Perhaps the same rifle used linen patches for normal work and a leather one for long range work

Daryl

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Re: Patches used in the 18th and 19th century
« Reply #38 on: April 29, 2011, 02:15:08 AM »
Interesting - I use a .021" patch and a ball that is .004" smaller than the .574" bore on my Enfield (5 groove), the patch doesn't tear or blow up, even with 100gr. 2F,. On the other hand, a thinner .015" patch, that still measures including the ball, out much larger than the depth of the rifling at the muzzle, will shred the patch with 90gr. 2F.  Both involve a good heavy smack to get seated due to being much larger than the groove diameter at the muzzle.

 The even deeper rifling at the breech must be responsible for tearing up the weaker patch(blowby), but doesn't explain why the heavier patch comes out looking normal, without any blowby.  Due to the .003" rifling at the muzzle both are the same size once inside the bore, however the thicker patch doesn't burn or blow.  It could be the sightly tighter fit to the lands, helps hold it back and make it slug up to seal, whereas the thinner patch allows the ball to move before slugging up and that's where the patch gets shredded. Neither load seems to build fouling and it is quite accurate - even though the sights are very close together.  I've made a number of 3" 5 shot hand held bench groups at 100 meters- issue sights, except for a silver blade soldered into the front block.

Oops, maybe I should split this one, too?
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 02:15:37 AM by Daryl »