Author Topic: Where have all the barrels gone ?  (Read 16439 times)

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Where have all the barrels gone ?
« on: March 10, 2011, 05:15:52 AM »
Starting to put together parts for the next build and it seems like hardy anyone has any barrels. TOW lists almost everything as mostly out of stock, or very long wait. Also they have the same listing on a lot of parts. Also noticed that the new owner of MBS is already putting the business up for sale. I'm realize that muzzleloading rifle parts are a pretty small market, but it seems like we are all of a sudden seeing a collapse in the industry. What is going on here?

Offline Acer Saccharum

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 19311
    • Thomas  A Curran
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2011, 05:21:17 AM »
Got me. Any barrel makers want to chip in? It would be an interesting perspective.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

omark

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2011, 05:32:40 AM »
i would guess its a sign of the economy.      mark

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9920
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 05:37:54 AM »
Starting to put together parts for the next build and it seems like hardy anyone has any barrels. TOW lists almost everything as mostly out of stock, or very long wait. Also they have the same listing on a lot of parts. Also noticed that the new owner of MBS is already putting the business up for sale. I'm realize that muzzleloading rifle parts are a pretty small market, but it seems like we are all of a sudden seeing a collapse in the industry. What is going on here?

Could be signs of barrel makers with military contracts. Those that are capable of such production anyway. If you check Green Mountain, for example, you will see they are making vintage submachine gun barrels, AR15 barrels and host of other modern barrels.

Try House of Muskets or check with Tip Curtis Frontier Shop.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline dogcreek

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2011, 06:13:35 AM »
I'm told barrel makers are busy with the war effort. After a lot of fruitless searching, I bought a Long Hammock barrel for a rifle I'm building. It's a good-looking barrel so it ought to shoot well.

Dave Faletti

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2011, 06:19:53 AM »
Anybody with military contracts will be busy for a while yet.  I don't see them adding a bunch of capacity for production that won't be around long term.  Leaves us in the lurch for the short term.  I was suprised how many other parts TOW was out of stock on.  I am not in the market at the moment so I haven't checked around much.  According to Green Mountain their muzzleloader barrels should be showing up in the near future.  They have a long production cycle.  I presume they work on them between the larger contract orders.

Ron Brimer

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2011, 06:52:52 AM »
The word is from a reliable source , Green Mtn will stop production of ML barrels . I was told at the CLA show, the muzzle loading business is on a down
at this time. The economy is to blame. You are not going to make it, have it sit on inventory, hoping a Distributer will order. maybe Don Getz can shed some light.
                   RON BRIMER

Dave Faletti

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2011, 10:34:26 AM »
The question came up last month about Green Mountain.  I did the simple thing and asked them.  This was their response.

"Hi Dave:

Thank you for visiting Green Mountain Rifle Barrel Co’s website and contacting us. We were wiped out of almost all muzzle loader barrels last fall. Many are now coming back in stock. The muzzle loader barrel is very slow production time, and can take up to a year to complete. However, they are our heritage, and there are no plans to discontinue them at this time.  Attached is our newest Price List / Catalog. Please email or call me for availability and ordering information (603)-447-1095. My name is Dennis Paladino. I welcome the opportunity to assist you with your rifle barrel needs. I hope that you will find the attached information helpful, and look forward to hearing from you soon.

 

Sincerely,

Dennis Paladino

Customer Service Rep

dpaladino@gmriflebarrel.com


Someone is blowing smoke.

dbraw

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2011, 03:47:36 PM »
Tip Curtis has hnudreds of barrels in stock.
Dan

Offline Eric Krewson

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2011, 04:46:35 PM »
Yep, call Tip, hundreds(lots of hundreds) in stock. I got on TOWs waiting list for a barrel, after an 8 month wait I called Tip, he had what I needed.

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5123
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2011, 05:16:06 PM »
Quote
GM says....We were wiped out of almost all muzzle loader barrels last fall.
then
Quote
Tip, hundreds(lots of hundreds) in stock.
Question:  How does an astute businessman eliminate competition and become the leading supplier of his products?
Answer:  Corner the market making it difficult for the competition to obtain product to sell.

During a recession, the man with money will slaughter the financially strapped or underfunded competition.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline Jim Chambers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1828
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2011, 06:31:22 PM »
I disagree with statements that the muzzleloading industry in general is in decline.  Our sales were up around 10% last year, and so far this year we're ahead of last year.  Maybe dealers are out of barrels and parts because of the increased demand.  I just added another worker to assemble locks because we are so far behind on orders for assembled locks.
As for barrels, every barrel maker I know is producing as many barrels as their machinery and working hours will allow.  I don't know about Green Mountain, but makers like Rice, Long Hammock, and Ed Rayl are making barrels as fast as humanily possible.  Barbie had a call from a gentleman just this week who was desperate for a swamped barrel, had to have it immediately.  She had several in stock, but when she told him the going price for a swamped barrel he said "I can't pay that much for a barrel." and hung up.  Well, I don't like paying  $4 for a gallon of gas, but I want to drive so I pay it.  Like several said above, barrels ARE available from Tip Curtis and others.  They might not be exactly what you're looking for, and they might cost more than you want to pay, but they are available.

Muzzleloading business, like any other type of businesses, do come up for sale from time to time.  Just because one business in an industry is for sale doesn't mean the whole industry is about to go belly up.  It simply means that one business owner no longer wants to own that business.  As for muzzleloading businesses, you need to know up front when you start or buy a muzzleloading business that you will never be able to make serious money.  If you are a good businessman and you are careful with your finances and reputation you can make a modest living.  You have to accept the satisfaction of being able to deal with a great group of customers  and doing something you truly love as your main reward.

Offline Joey R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 701
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2011, 06:35:31 PM »
NUFF SAID!!
Joey.....Don’t ever ever ever give up! Winston Churchill

Offline Blacksmoke

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 871
  • "Old age and treachery beats youth and skill"
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2011, 06:45:02 PM »
Jim:  Thanks for telling it like it is!   I am not sure why but this muzzle loading realm seems to be a bad place for "gossip" false info and fickleness.  However I appreciate people like you who have earned a reputation for "truth" and "reliability".  Keep it going!   Hugh Toenjes
H.T.

northmn

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2011, 07:20:07 PM »
 
Jim:  Thanks for telling it like it is!   I am not sure why but this muzzle loading realm seems to be a bad place for "gossip" false info and fickleness.  However I appreciate people like you who have earned a reputation for "truth" and "reliability".  Keep it going!   Hugh Toenjes

Seems to be a universal trait among any gathering of humans on any issue.  Hear some really strange things about fellow workers problems where I work.  I noticed that Colerain and Rice added some straight barrels in common configurations to their line ups.  The days of the cheap straight barrel seem to be passing.  For a while they were around $100, but i remember paying about $75 for one when $75 would buy more than $100 today.  There does not seem to be any foreign ML parts like there used to be either due to the devaluation of the dollar over seas (may not be a bad thing). 

DP

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19534
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2011, 07:39:00 PM »
The parts we have now are a real bargain.  If you adjust for inflation, it's amazing compared to the 1970's when I was making $8000 a year.

(joking) I think Brian Dancey and I have most of the barrels.  We keep planning guns, buying parts and not getting enough time to work on them.  I dragged you under the bus with me, buddy!

This forum is a great place to buy a barrel.  Put what you need in the for sale area and chances are somebody has something close that they planned to use, but now they "need" something else.
Andover, Vermont

wetzel

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2011, 08:15:27 PM »
I sure hate to see the lack parts out there because it makes it difficult to put a project together, but also because I fear it means some business has gone under.  I hope its more due to what Jim Chambers said and there is an increase in demand causing the crunch.  What Mr. Chambers didn't mention was that buckeye barrels has some barrels in stock.  Also, I called Rice the other day looking for a straight octagon barrel and they had it in stock, so they may have what you're looking for.  I know Rice barrels are a bit pricier than some, but I have never heard anything but good about Rice.  Their straight barrels with square bottom rifling are not much more expensive than a green river barrel.

Leatherbelly

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2011, 08:21:58 PM »
Speaking of Buckeye Barrels, has their E-mail address changed? I get my mail returned.

Ron Brimer

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #18 on: March 10, 2011, 08:32:03 PM »
Jim    I hope what you say is really what is happening. I dont know why a major vender would want to tell people about the ML industry ,I was not alone when he was talking about business . and the people who were with me ,you know also. Glad you set things straight,  Also I dont know why a well known vender  would tell me about Green MTN.  Like I said, he was having a bad day. Take care. ( all of you guys).
       RON B

Offline Blackpowder Barbie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1670
    • Jim Chambers Flintlocks
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2011, 01:18:36 AM »
Hey guys, nope Buckeye (which by the way is just me  :) and one small corner wall in the big Chambers shop.) is still here and going strong.  The email works fine, buckeye_barrels@hotmail.com.  I'm afraid folks still don't quite know the whole story from my perspective as a barrel dealer so here's some insight.

  I opened Buckeye as a means to do two things.  One to avoid any chance of the ATF questioning my selling of full guns and thus wanting to charge the 11% excise tax.  By selling the barrel outside of the rest of the kit there is no room for doubt.  The second reason was at that time (2005) barrels were hard to find.  The topic of this thread is nothing new!  My biggest problem was/sometimes still is, that the manufacturers can only make so many a day and when I order 20, 30, or 40 at a time it ties their machines up for several weeks just running my stuff.   That's not counting the orders they have from Track and Dunlap and Stonewall and every other barrel dealers.  Toss in customer orders and they are slammed.  So by trying to keep an inventory built up here in my shop I managed (for the most part) to decrease the wait time for barrels for my customers. 

  However, when the economy slowed in 2008 I found myself with all my $ tied up in barrels and nothing to pay bills with.  So as many others did I cut back on inventory - both for barrels and for rifle stocks.  There just wasn't the cash flow available then to maintain hundreds of barrels and stocks. TOF I couldn't have said it better -
Quote
During a recession, the man with money will slaughter the financially strapped or underfunded competition.
  This has been a major problem for us for several years now, even as financially sound as we are it is very difficult to compete against what seems to be a never ending stream of funding. 

  So when sales turned back up in the middle of last year I found myself like many other ML dealers, struggling to get inventory built back up.  Barrel wise I'm about back to the inventories levels I carried before 2008, however I anticipate it to still be a slow recovery this year with all the makers getting slammed with orders again.  Also keep in mind when orders were cut back by dealers, the barrel makers cut back on steel purchases so they've got to build up just like I do.  Good news is I hear talk of newer machines coming on line which help to speed up production! 

  I don't see the industry declining in a drastic way as had been suggested.  Sales are good.  So I ask folks to just bear with us small, slow, hands on ML businesses as we try to get back to normal. 
Barbie Chambers-Phillips

Offline Pete G.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2013
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2011, 02:10:19 AM »
  I don't see the industry declining in a drastic way as had been suggested.  Sales are good.  So I ask folks to just bear with us small, slow, hands on ML businesses as we try to get back to normal. 

I am glad to hear that. Thanks, Barbie. I am still amazed in this day and time to see so many folks in this business, especially since I am planning on retiring from the ship building business in the next couple of years and had sort of decided to go into pretty steady gunbuilding as a self sustaining hobby. Sure beats my previous hobby of turning new guns into used guns and then trading for a loss.
I suspect when we look back on this time with websites like this one and all of the internet vendors available that we will look at it as a second Golden Age but who knows, our best days may be still to come.

Ron Brimer

  • Guest
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2011, 02:21:37 AM »
HI Barbie  
 Good to hear from you on this, I guess some of the parts people are not recovering from the 06 to 08 downer. During that period maybe bulit to or three LRs.  The last two years average 4 or 5 a year. I was not trying to spread a false hood about Green MTN , I was just trying to discuss the problem.     I have been building almost 30 years. I dont want any one to lose their drawers, I have seen too many horror stories,  any way thanks to Jim. and you for explaining things.
                               To all you builders, buyers, shooters . Take Care   RON B

Offline Herb

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1709
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2011, 03:01:18 AM »
I called Rice Barrels today to order a JLR barrel in .50 caliber to build a rifle for a young lady.  Jason said they were installing a new CNC rifling machine today and are getting another lathe tomorrow.  He says they are worked to death, there ain't no slowdown in the barrel business!
Herb

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3730
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2011, 03:43:21 AM »
We were wiped out of almost all muzzle loader barrels last fall. Many are now coming back in stock. The muzzle loader barrel is very slow production time, and can take up to a year to complete. 

Sincerely,

Dennis Paladino

Customer Service Rep

dpaladino@gmriflebarrel.com

Excuse me? Take up to a year to complete? A very curious statement!
Tom C.

Offline Waksupi

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 358
  • Ric Carter, Somers, Montana
Re: Where have all the barrels gone ?
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2011, 04:51:26 AM »
One of the most irritating things about suppliers, is delivery time. Not so much that it may take a long time to get something, but that they continually lie to the customer as to delivery date. When a supplier lies to me about when I will have something, I have made the mistake of relying on their word. So, this puts me in the position of having lied to a customer, who is waiting for their gun. All in all, a darn poor way for a vendor to treat customers, and expect return business. If they want to lie, they need to get out of business, and go into politics.
When I worked for a custom rifle shop, we in the shop who knew actual production times looked at what the sales people were telling clients waiting for rifles. The times were totally impossible to meet, but they insisted that they would loose customers if they thought they may have to wait a year and a half for a rifle. Our shop crew put our foot down, and demanded honest scheduling. We went through the outstanding orders, figured out how long each project would take, and then added three to four weeks to the delivery time, to cover any unforeseen circumstances. 
After we did this, no orders were dropped, if anything, orders went up. Constant phone calls from anxious clients went to practically none, as we began delivering rifles before the estimated dates, making for happy customers. People are happier getting something a month early, than eight months late.   
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana