Author Topic: Refinishing LMF stain  (Read 7411 times)

Offline Greg S Day

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Refinishing LMF stain
« on: October 17, 2008, 10:01:53 PM »
Hello guys, 

I read daily,  post almost never,  and learn constantly from this forum.

So here's my question.

I'll be building my 6th and 7th guns this winter.  Got parts on the shelf.   I've seen constant improvement in each gun and increased the degree of difficult on a few.  One of my earlier guns was a 42" .62 cal rifle on a late Lancaster stock.  I'm going elk hunting in the fall of 09 and think this gun will be my
"big medicine".  BUT  There is way to much wood on the front end of this gun.  Too much around the lock panels.  Too much along the barrel. 

The rear end is down pretty good.  I don't really want to touch it if I don't have to.

I'm thinking of pulling the hardware and working it down to acceptable dimensions since I'll probably keep it now.

It was finished with Laurel Mt. Forge "nut brown" stain and tung oil.

Finally the question.

Do you think I can restain the fore portion of the stock and have it blend with the rear portion.  I assume I would sand down the entire front end while I remove material.

Has any one tried this before? 

I look forward to your input.

Greg Day
He Conquers Who Endures

Offline JTR

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 01:21:08 AM »
I don't think you'll have any problem blending the front to the rear, but if so, just refinish the whole thing.
John
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HistoricalArmsMaker

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 01:26:26 AM »
The stain part isn't an issue because you will be rasping down excess wood, then sanding through multiple grits until you get out to fine. As long as you use the fine sand paper on the blend area, it should be okay. Problem is the tung oil (or any finish for that matter). I tried this very thing, and I mean identical; nut brown and tung oil refinish. I couldn't make myself happy, but I'm anal about getting it right. Wherever you stop, the finish coat of the tung oil draws a line and the new stain doesn't blend to that finish very well. Its your call, but after my train wreck several years ago, I would just sand down, re-stain and re-finish. By the way, tung oil is an interior finish and I found out the hard way it didn't work out well for me on my hunting rifle. That was the reason for the re-finish.
Susie

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 07:16:33 AM »
The stain part isn't an issue because you will be rasping down excess wood, then sanding through multiple grits until you get out to fine. As long as you use the fine sand paper on the blend area, it should be okay. Problem is the tung oil (or any finish for that matter). I tried this very thing, and I mean identical; nut brown and tung oil refinish. I couldn't make myself happy, but I'm anal about getting it right. Wherever you stop, the finish coat of the tung oil draws a line and the new stain doesn't blend to that finish very well. Its your call, but after my train wreck several years ago, I would just sand down, re-stain and re-finish. By the way, tung oil is an interior finish and I found out the hard way it didn't work out well for me on my hunting rifle. That was the reason for the re-finish.
Susie

Tung oil was used to "pave" B-29 runways in China. They put down the gravel, rolled in tight then mud, then tung oiled to waterproof. If the tung oil does not work in exterior finishes its because of something added to it. I think the Japanese used it on military rifles too.
See
http://www.geocities.com/jr462nd/Hellbird_Stories_p8.html
It has a story about runway construction.
Dan
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billd

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 09:46:51 PM »
Several years ago I bought Exterior Tung Oil from Behr. I used it on several hunting guns, including my own, with no complaints. I quit using it when I was told by an old soldier some people could have a sever alerigic reaction to it.   This same person told me the military used to use it but quit because of the people alergic to it.  I'm not swearing it's true, just repeating what I was told. I figured better safe than sorry.

Bill


Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2008, 05:35:51 AM »
Tung oil comes from a Chinese nut and people who are allergic or sensitive to nuts/nut oils should avoid contact with tung oil or any product containing tung oil - like peanuts, the vapors alone can cause an allergic reaction/attack.

I don't claim to be an expert on tung oil but after a few bad experiences of my own, I've done considerable research and some experimentation.

If you see "Polymerized tung oil finish", "tung wiping oil finish", "Tung oil gloss", "Danish tung oil", "Swedish oil" or anything similar in name, more than likely it will not be any good for exterior or gun applications.  The "finish" products are often blended with varnish, rosin and/or wax(es) in order to obtain a product that's cheap to make and easy to use but it's not true tung oil nor will it be anywhere near as durable.  There are a few tung oil blends sold for exterior applications but chalking, peeling, blistering and cracking are issues with these products commonly reported by boat owners.  The particular product I had cracking & peeling issues with was "Minwax Tung oil finish" - I learned the hard way after putting it on a shotgun stock, went on easy and dried very fast, half a dozen coats gave a very nice shine with minimal finishing & buffing.  Within a few days of carrying the gun hunting, the finish was already starting to wear off and by the end of small game season in the areas where the finish wasn't worn off, it was all check-cracked.

A process called polymerization is used to intensify Tung Oil's natural cross- bonding tendency - this process is slow and requires tightly controlled heating of the oil, too hot and it plasticizes or burns, too cool and it doesn't polymerize.  Heat polymerizing does darken the oil and the extent to which it has been taken in temperature and time as well as the properties of the particular oil itself can result in the oil being anywhere from tea colored to nearly a black tar.  Tung oil that is properly heat polymerized will require considerable thinning before use, usually 2:1 to 4:1 thinner to oil - the type of thinner used will have a proportional effect on the drying time but even if using naphtha the drying time for pure polymerized tung oil is usually not less than 36 hours.  In my trials, the very dark heat polymerized tung oil thinned 4:1 with naphtha and applied moderately (enough to see the oil lay on top of the wood but not enough for it to be runny) the first coat penetrates quickly but will remain sticky to the touch for about 24 hours.  On plain un-stained maple, it will impart a color ranging from honey amber to a light brown, the more coats applied, the darker the color will get.   Leaving the sample blocks out in the weather, sun & rain, water beaded and ran off and the wood appeared to be damaged over about two months of continuous exposure.  Tung oil properly polymerized using only heat will produce the hardest finish

The word "finish" is usually what gives away that "polymerized tung oil" is not just oil.  Because the polymerization process is time consuming and expensive, companies simply blend tung oil with varnish and other additives rather than cooking it.  The result is that it will not withstand exposure.  Other tip-offs that the product is not acceptable for use on gun stocks or anything else associated with exterior use:  "not for wood floors", "not for food preparation surfaces", "not food grade", "gloss", "high sheen", "no buffing required" are just a few of them.  Pure tung oil (drying agents & thinners don't make it un-pure) will not dry to a gloss finish, it has to be rubbed and it will still not reach a full gloss look. 

"Fast drying" does not necessarily mean that tung oil isn't pure nor does it mean the oil is not blended with other finish materials like varnish but I have noticed that the faster the oil dries, the less penetration depth it achieves and the surface will not dry completely smooth.  Too much drying agent will result in the finish being brittle, it won't have the same amount of "give" as do slower drying mixtures.  Pure tung oil most forgiving when it comes to dents & dings, as long as the drier content was not too high the finish will not normally crack or split even with severe deformation of the wood.

The easiest way to avoid problems is to request an MSDS for the particular product.  Most times the ingredients will be listed only by CAS or UN numbers but these can be quickly found on-line and if the ingredients contain anything other than tung oil, a drying agent and solvent, I'd avoid using it on anything intended for outdoor use.
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HistoricalArmsMaker

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2008, 07:34:22 PM »
I used Formby's; I looked into my notes on that rifle. Figures it was the wrong type to use, because I know they use Tung oil in Europe because of their extreme humid weather. They also use teak oil as well and often a mix of these. But after that initial experience, I have been scared and leary to try it again. With all this information, I'll check out some better grades and try it again! Gotta love learning!
Susie

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 02:28:17 AM »
Formby's is a tung oil composite, not pure tung.

HistoricalArmsMaker

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 03:26:43 PM »
I figure its best to stay within the scope (somewhat) of oil based finishing used with compatible stains. I doubt though I will ever use tung oil on a rifle stock again, but do want to try the real stuff experimenting with exposure to the elements. Never knew about the allergic reaction though! Interesting stuff.
On a minor change of the subject, I want to play with shellac and wax finish. I do know following shellac with wax is a traditional finish and gives a beauty hard to imitate with anything else. But does anyone know just how much protection shellac gives us? The way it soaks into the wood, and its natural basis, I do wonder if we get much protection from humidity. The wax would provide a rain barrier, but does the shellac "seal" the wood?
Susie

don getz

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 03:34:34 PM »
Greg....why not bring that gun along down to the shop on wednesday,  we can give you some ideas on how to proceed
with it...........Don

Offline Longknife

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 06:03:51 PM »
I have used Formbys' tung oil for a final finish for decades, I have a gun I finished in '83 with it, the finish still looks new, I hunt with it every Squirrel season. The  wood gets wiped down after every hunt with a dry cloth, there has been no problem with the finish????? I have another one I finished for my son about the same time and it was refinished two years ago, not because the finish failed but because it had been through H$$L!!!! Bumps, dings, scrathes, etc. I do not believe that tung oil is an "exterior" finish (they tell you taht on the label) but I believe with reasonable care Tung oil is a great finish for a stock.

 If you want a water proof finish for a guns stock, try this, first give the stained dewhiskered stock a couple or coats of pure Thompsons water seal, 24 hrs. between coats. Mix TWS with TO 50/50, a couple of more coats. then finish a couple of more coats of straight Tung Oil, rubbed in real good. I know its NOT pc but how many of us use pc finishes any way????

I have a can of Behlen pure Tung oil (china wood oil). I tried this on a stock and it would give a very nice low gloss sheen after rubbing in but after 24 hrs. it continued to soak in and the wood looked like there was no finish at all. I gave it 8 or ten coats and it just would NOT build up to a "finish", just kept soaking in. I finished it with a couple of coats of Formbys' and it looked very good. the customer was very happy.....(and so was I).....Ed
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Offline Darkhorse

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 06:56:09 PM »
I have been considering refinishing an entire rifle. Its my main hunting rifle and the stock is too long with winter hunting clothes on. So I want to shorten the butt a little. Plus the fore end needs a little reshaping and I want to pour a pewter chevron nosecap.
The rifle is stained with Lancaster Maple (LMF) and finished with Chambers finish.
How deep does the old stain and finish penetrate? As in how much wood needs to be removed to clean wood again?
Some parts of the gun will be taken to clean wood during the rebuild, others won't.
What will strip the Finish?
Hows the best way to go about this?
Don't want to hijack a thread but the same info could be useful to us both.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline Greg S Day

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 07:03:21 PM »
Thanks to all who reponded. It wasn't really a tung oil discussion, but it's always good to read about others experiences.

I've finished my four or five rifles with tung oil including my main hunting gun.  I've had no problems.  Been in a fair amount of weather too.  I do appreciate the responses.

I guess you all see I'm gonna stop in the Getz's shop on Wednesday for a barrel consult.  I'll probably take up Don on his offer and take the gun along.

How's this for a vacation day.  Hunt in the morning.  Go visit the Getz shop.  Stop by Fred Millers on the way home to drop off some wood.  Hunt in the evening!!

WOO HOO! !

Greg   
He Conquers Who Endures

Offline Longknife

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Re: Refinishing LMF stain
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 06:08:06 PM »
Dark horse,  I have used Formbys and Minwax "Furniture Refinisher" to completely strip a stock. Probably any brand will work well, its not as harsh as a  "stripper".....Ed
Ed Hamberg