Watch those shot patches...

[Roger Fisher]

I'll try to keep this short; but do want to get this out there for comment and responses.....I had finally talked an old hunting buddy in to ML and fitted him out with rifle,box etc etc.... The rifle be a Douglas barreled .50 caliber in cussin gun mode , with quite a few rounds thru her.  This guy likes to stand and pound at 25 yards.  He finally  shot a bench match (50 yds) a couple shoots ago.  He complained then about the rifle shooting way low (abt 7 inches) after he cleaned her and began shooting again....  This past Sunday I noticed him crawling around searching for his shot patches.  Couple other shooters where helping him out.... I called him today and asked him to meet me at the range since I wanted to eyeball the rifle's muzzle.  I found what I expected to find causing ripped patching.  The 11 O'clock land end and the 12 O'clock land end had a hook that I could catch my lil finger nail on.  Did the fix with 400 black paper and my finger.  He had a string then of 10 or a dozen accurate shots at 55 yds bench rest and I recovered all the shot patches (.017 carhartt and spit) all showed wear at the lands; but were in good shape.  He then decided to clean the beast (for some reason) with simple green and water.  His very next shot was 6 0'clock by abt 8 inches.,... On recovering that patch it looked like a shredded donut with the center shot/torn out.  Puzzlement for sure.  I told ol Bill shoot her dirty and unless you wish to lose the match do not clean during a rifle match....

I told him that my very unschooled opinion  was the same as what happens when 'you' run a dry patch down a dry bore and she jams up when 'you' try to yank it back out of the bore.   Thinking that when we shove that tight ball and patch with spit down the bore we possibly squeeze most or all the 'juice' out of the patch that rides on the rifling lands.  
The charge then blows the ball thru the patch and the result is a donut hole appearing patch and an inaccurate shot.  

Am I halucinating again?

 I swear I had only one red wine tonight so far.  

Anyone out there ever run in to this same thing

[westerner]

I load dirty when using a ball and spit patch. Never had one blow a hole through the patch from a clean barrel.  He musta got it real sqreachy clean.  

Wait a minute, the ball went through the patch?  You're haloosinating all right!   

             Joe.

[T*O*F]

The charge then blows the ball thru the patch and the result is a donut hole appearing patch and an inaccurate shot.

Rog,
By some coincidence, the same thing happened to me this past Sunday for the first time ever.  But it might not have happened how you describe.

I've been using Lehigh lube and Schuetzen powder, but ran out of it.  Switched to Ballistol....because I had it, but I was getting heavy fouling.  This past Sunday, I grabbed a can of Goex and some pre-lubed TC patches (because I had em) and headed out to our woodswalk.  About halfway thru the shoot, I was loading and it was going down hard.  About halfway down, it gave way and the ramrod slammed to the bottom.  Upon pulling it out, the patch was hanging on the jag and had a big hole in the center of it.  I had pushed the ball thru the patch.

So, a combination of things:  heavy fouling, a lube that wasn't wiping the bore clean, and old pre-lubed patches that were probably weak fibered from age.  He may be having the same problem, but not tearing the patch enough during loading, but the ball shoots thru it upon firing.  Weird stuff!!

[smylee grouch]

Weired for sure, musta been a full moon and high tide. Smylee

[Roger Fisher]

Weired for sure, musta been a full moon and high tide. Smylee

Now that its morning and my D'Ts are gone I should submit that my description of ball shootin thru the patch should have read - "the charge must have driven the patch and ball 'thru' the patch that was jammed agin the rifling".  Thanks for the proofreading.   More actual instances you folks had occur?

[Standing Bear]

You didn't mention powder load, ball diameter or patch thickness/material. 

Suspect other issues in the barrel besides the obvious that you cleared up.  I wipe between EVERY shot on all of my Douglas barrels - no fliers. 
TC

[Daryl]

Sounds like old weak or rotten material to me, in both instances, Roger's friend and TOF's episode. The only time I've pushed a ball through a patch, was when loading a water based lube in freezing temps - the patch stuck to the bore and the ball went through it when I pounded the rod against a tree to push the ball down.

As to being so tight as to squeeze all the lube out, I don't believe that and neither do you, Roger. We've both loaded or load balls from .007" to .009" over bore size with a .015" to .022" patch and had no 'sticking' problems in a dirty bore, let alone a clean one. They both load quite easily.

[Roger Fisher]

You didn't mention powder load, ball diameter or patch thickness/material. 

Suspect other issues in the barrel besides the obvious that you cleared up.  I wipe between EVERY shot on all of my Douglas barrels - no fliers. 
TC

Goex 3 f .490 in 50 cal Douglas (well used) .017 carhartt simple green and water schpritzed on w/a mister.  He claims this happened before as described in my post.  Very next patch had 2 minor holes at lands and shct was accurate, Next patch was perfect.  Go figure.  Patch material not 'old' and is very strong.  No fouling ring at breech that I could feel....Yeah right - Barbara doesn't believe me either sometimes

[Daryl]

OK- what does the material measure on a mic?  I suspect that .017" is with calipers - I have 3 sets of calipers and they vary .003" depending on the width of the jaws.  The largest reading set of calipers is still .002" smaller than my mic. while the rest give up to .005" smaller readings.

Taylor's mic reads .001" smaller than mine, and LB's calipers read the same as my mic. Perhaps he's not squeezing the tines together with his fingers as hard as I am - don't know - but!  All I do know in this particular matter, is I don't trust that measurement as true.&  For the moment, accepting it as truth and if it is indeed as thick as what I'd call .017",  it is at least .004" thinner than I would use with that same ball.

I prefer to use balls that are .005" under bore size with a .0215" to .0225" patch, but do admit to using smaller sized balls in 2 rifles, both having  only .008" deep rifling.  Both of those guns do well with .0215" and .0225" patches, - wet almost dripping with moisture, not merely spritized with Tracy's leaf moisturizer.

I suspect it's a case of too thin a patch - afterall, given .010" rifling, there is only .002" compression in the bottom of the grooves IF the patch actually measures .017" with .010" rilfing, and if the rifling is .012" deep, the ball and patch are undersized, barely touching the bottom of the grooves.

A .017" patch might work well in that barrel with a bore sized ball orone only a cou-le thou smaller than the bore, but not that little .490" - imho.

[T*O*F]

Sounds like old weak or rotten material to me, in both instances, Roger's friend and TOF's episode.

An addenda to my episode just popped into my mind.  I had also strung my patches on a piece of hemp thread with a knot in the end of it.  After pulling the patch off to load, it has a small hole in the center.  That could have contributed by giving the patch a starting point to rip thru.

[xring2245]

Where was the sprue when the ball(s) was (were) loaded?

[Daryl]

Good question, xring.

I always take for granted that people know enough about 'accuracy' loading to have the sprued ball loaded, sprue pointing straight up, whether it's a tangental cuttoff or a projection as on Lyman and someother moulds.

If a tangent cuttoff moulded ball is loaded sideways, it further reduces the snugness of the fit on both sides and will promote burnout and therefore accuracy.

[Roger Fisher]

Where was the sprue when the ball(s) was (were) loaded?

Ol Bill was loading next to me the day in question, so I sure didn't notice where the spru If any was
while he was loading.  I do seem to recall a yellow plastic box in his shooting gear and assume he was loading speer balls.  I've been trying to convince that Deutscha to use a .495 or .500 (of which I have a bunch) to no avail.  He'll come around in due time I hope.     Any more folks out there have run into same as my 1st post on this wierd occurence    And as I stated before it happened more than once on different days!

[Leatherbelly]

Makes sense Daryls. I dislike my RCBS tangential cutoff molds.The head of the ball is cut off almost an eighth. I have another tangent cut off mold by Kal Tool of Winnipeg Man. that are very slight and these balls work just great.Personally, I like the extruded type of sprue cutoff.

[Daryl]

Makes sense Daryls. I dislike my RCBS tangential cutoff molds.The head of the ball is cut off almost an eighth. I have another tangent cut off mold by Kal Tool of Winnipeg Man. that are very slight and these balls work just great.Personally, I like the extruded type of sprue cutoff.

So do I.  If perfect, a measurement taken from the flat to the base, is exactly ball diameter - on a Lyman mould. Few are perfect. I have two, the one cavity of a double cavity .400"RB mould and my .684" RB mould, but it is an Italian copy of a Lyman mould.

[Roger Fisher]

More on this subject - Ol Bill shot with us at Langhorne, Pa yesterday.  Shot all day w/o wiping with a seperate patch. Wet patch, checked shot patches and all perfect.  He finally made sure he did not clean the bore w/a seperate cleaning patch/patches.  Accuracy at 25 yds (thats about all he shot) v good and he won 2 matches...Rib eye roasts.  

BTW 52 shooters.  Good shoot good prizes meat, cash

[Daryl]

Good ending to the story.

[Leatherbelly]

   Rog,
    I envy you guys! Maybe when I retire, I'll move in with ya!
Three feet of snow in my front yard still.Six foot snowbanks everywhere.