Author Topic: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!  (Read 24406 times)

Offline Roger Fisher

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A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« on: October 18, 2008, 02:38:34 AM »
While doing some 'work' at our range today a 'shooter' arrived with all his goodies incl heavy sandbagsetc etc and his scope mounted in line.  I very respectfully welcomed him and listened (hiding my boredom) to his tale of woe having to do with leaving his 'rifle' in the cellar for the past year and working over 3 hrs to get the rust out of it including the bore.  ::)  I told him to do his thingee at our bench.  He proceeded to take the gun apart and finally fired a shot at 75 yds on a paper plate.
Of course, he missed it.  Moved it in to 35 yds in our bunker and started shooting while I made myself busy elsewhere.   He fired 5 or 6 shots hit the plate with a 'group'of at least 6 inches widest shot.  He left happy as a hog in slop.

Amazing!! ;D

I'm sure you have all seen similar shooting at your own club ranges...?

BTW - I have tried (over the yrs) to talk this same fellow in to coming to our shoots and allow us to 'help' him (a convert?) to no avail.  I gave up ! 

I frequently speak to folks at the high power (suppository) range and let them know that if we have 3 entries with an in-line even if 3 shooters use the same 'gun' we will have a match just for them!  Hand out fliers etc. non show up. We also spent the $ for newspaper adv to no avail that we know of.  One of those bench high power shooters stated "You guys shoot 'freehand' don't ya???  That said alot in one question.   ::)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 07:06:03 PM by Roger Fisher »

jim m

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2008, 02:47:42 AM »
most people seem to want everything instant and easy without any effort. your tale doesn't surprise me in the least. was at the range today and a fellow was braging about how he could keep all his shots from a 7mag inside a 6" circle. I went an pulled my target and all the holes were inside a 2" circle. that was 50yds off the bench, patched round ball and flint ignition. he gathered his stuff and left without a word. now I'm not a great shot and my group was very good for me and dammm it felt good

Daryl

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 03:00:26 AM »
I've yet to see anyone show up at a range with an in-line for any sort of shooting. The stores around here seem to sell them, but still no shooters that I've seen.  This phenominum has been explained to me (by someone who markets them, as - people who shoot inlines are not interested in shooting BP, only in extending their hunting season with something that looks simple and easy to shoot as well as load.  I can add to that statement that extending seasons are needed for these people as they lack the skill to 'fill their tags' with a modern firearm during regular seasons.  Many of these same people shoot compounds for exactly the same reason. Most are upset cross-bows aren't included in the bow season. Sad, but there is little help for those who fit this category - includes the majority of inline shooters - but not all - keep the faith.

Candle Snuffer

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2008, 07:49:32 AM »
From what I have seen at my local range is that most the folks shooting inlines only
come out to the range prior to, or during, hunting season - shoot an 8 to 12 inch group from 50 yards - think they really achieved something - then leave - and you don't see them until the following year - happy as a lark they hit paper once again, somewhere...

I must admit that many of todays hunters absolutely amaze me with what little effort they are willing to put into achieving any real accuracy for the hunt...  Sure, there are still good sportsmen out there in this world who strive for a decent group before setting off on the hunt.  Unfortunately they are becoming less in numbers each passing year.

I guess I just don't understand the modern mind set when it comes to hunting?  I'll stick with the old ways and strive to make every shot count, and not rely on a lucky shot.

This is just what I've noticed...

Offline Dphariss

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #4 on: October 18, 2008, 10:11:41 AM »
While doing some 'work' at our range today a 'shooter' arrived with all his goodies incl heavy sandbagsetc etc and his scope mounted in line.  I very respectfully welcomed him and listened (hiding my boredom) to his tale of woe having to do with leaving his 'rifle' in the cellar for the past year and working over 3 hrs to get the rust out of it including the bore.  ::)  I told him to do his thingee at our bench.  He proceeded to take the gun apart and finally fired a shot at 75 yds on a paper plate.
Of course, he missed it.  Moved it in to 35 yds in our bunker and started shooting while I made myself busy elsewhere.   He fired 5 or 6 shots hit the plate with a 'group'of at least 6 inches widest shot.  He left happy as a hog in slop.

Amazing!! ;D

I'm sure you have all seen similar shooting at your own club ranges...?

BTW - I have tried (over the yrs) to talk this same fellow in to coming to our shoots and allow us to 'help' him (a convert?) to no avail.  I gave up ! 

I bet he has been using one of those wonderful perchlorate powders as well. Would not matter where is stored it unless *really* cleaned. The barrel is now a tent stake.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

long carabine

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #5 on: October 18, 2008, 01:02:23 PM »
 I see the weekend hunters sighting in at the range all the time. They come out 1 week before deer season, sight in then try to shoot " A buck" (Notice the quote.). I work withone, he gave me his caplock to check over and it was so rusted its a wonder it will fore. He has never fired it, it is not sighted in and he has no powder or balls. Hes out in the woods with it today. Shame. Tim

don getz

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2008, 04:40:57 PM »
To many people it is just an implement...they could care less what it looks like, as long as it goes "bang".   Many years ago my brother Dick was at a local sportsman's club shooting his flintlock.   After shooting a shot, a spectator said,
"you'd better check that thing, there's fire coming out the back end"..........Don

TNrifleman

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2008, 05:29:34 PM »
I've yet to see anyone show up at a range with an in-line for any sort of shooting. The stores around here seem to sell them, but still no shooters that I've seen.  This phenomenon has been explained to me (by someone who markets them, as - people who shoot inlines are not interested in shooting BP, only in extending their hunting season with something that looks simple and easy to shoot as well as load.  I can add to that statement that extending seasons are needed for these people as they lack the skill to 'fill their tags' with a modern firearm during regular seasons.  Many of these same people shoot compounds for exactly the same reason. Most are upset cross-bows aren't included in the bow season. Sad, but there is little help for those who fit this category - includes the majority of inline shooters - but not all - keep the faith.

This may be the most accurate explanation of the phenomenon that I have ever read! Sad, but true...

BrownBear

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #8 on: October 18, 2008, 05:31:34 PM »
I've been around lots of them over the years, and due to a public radio interview I did yesterday about muzzleloaders, have had  the opportunity to talk to more.  But I'm seeing that the're divided into a couple of broad categories:

In the first are guys who treat their cartridge guns the same way and put the same amount of effort into hunts during the regular season.  No changing them, and good riddance.  Probably best not to have them in the traditional muzzleloading world at all.

In the second category is a much larger number who use inlines simply because all they hear and read in magazines is about ease of cleaning, long range and the "difficulties" of traditional.  Magazines are swamped with inline ads and there's nothing in the articles and nothing in the ads about traditional.

I can sort out the first group pretty quickly, and I frankly don't put a lot of effort into changing them. 

The second group is fertile ground for a little truth and a lot of converts.  They aren't using traditional gear because their ears have been filled with sales pitch and they can't find any other info.  Spend a little time with them, let them shoot your guns and show them how really easy it all is. 

You've got them nibbling, so it's time to set the hook:

Show them a gun you built yourself and ask them if they've ever seen a kit for building an inline.  There isn't a single one on the market!!!!!  And yet a whole bunch of these guys tie their own flies, build their own fishing rods and reload their own ammunition. 

Then tell them about some of the inexpensive sidelock kits available- Traditions and Lyman coming to mind first.  I know, I know, they can't measure up to a good custom build from parts, but you want these guys to build their own quickly and easily.  No better way to get a traditional gun they really care about in their hands.  They can come around to more "sophisticated" gear and builds later and at their own pace, but you have to get them in the door first.

While chatting with the radio reporter about muzzleloader hunting I drifted off into how I'm hunting entirely with gear I made myself, saying that I spend a whole year getting ready for the hunt.  Out of everything I said in the interview, that segment is the only part they played in its entirety.

Next thing you know, statewide public radio aired the interview.  And now my phone is ringing off the hook and my email buffer is stuffing with people wanting to know more about building and hunting with their own.  I know some of these guys, and most of them have inlines in their closets.  Yet they are fascinated with the idea of hunting with gear, especially guns, they've made themselves.

All they need is a little exposure, a little help, and some TLC. 

Jim Thomas

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #9 on: October 18, 2008, 06:07:21 PM »
The Troy NRA youth team holds a meat shoot every October as a fund raiser.   The youngsters support  Whispering Pines and we in turn make sure we turn out in good numbers for them.   Nice bunch of kids and adults.

Last year I observed one inline shooter. Open sights, off hand event.   Not sure how he was doing,  but was happy to see one there if for nothing else but to show support for the shooting sport.

I wonder if being surrounded by all the traditional rifles, made an impression beyond the inline advertisements?   He certainly saw an enviroment beyond anything the inline crowd has enjoyed.   What harm can come from opening that door by holding an open shoot from time to time?    What fear do we have?   What better way to displace the myths surrounding traditional rifles that inline advertisers have built their product around? 

« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 06:11:28 PM by Jim Thomas »

Daryl

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2008, 06:56:31 PM »
Brownbear- what a wonderful post.  It certainly raises my hopes that there could be more converts to tradiotional equipment than I imagined. Goodonya!

 Unfortunately, such seems not to be the case here and by the sounds of it, most elsewhere too.  Alaska seems to be a fertile ground for the advancement of our sport.  The choice of kits you made is a good one, although I haven't seen any Traditions kits here. Seems to me those kits are only slightly more expensive than an inline.  The Lyman would be my choice - but then as indicated, I haven't seen any Traditions rifles or kits.

 Hunting in cold (freezing) weather imparts an extra burden on those of us who shoot patched round balls & this is the main reason many of the earlier BP shooters around here switched to shooting slugs.  We do need a cold weather (freezer) test on the available "Valley Lubes", whether the "Sh" or "Hodg/Horn" types. We know the LeHeighValley lube will work.  Left in the deep-freeze for a few hours and coming out still plyable should be enough of a test. Moose snot, if mixed appropriately will also work, but some find difficulty with fouling.

BrownBear

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2008, 07:15:54 PM »
I think the key is identifying and helping people with an interest, a curiosity, or a proven inclination to making their own ANYTHING.  You'll find them in most other outdoor sports. 

An example is a talented leatherworker I know.  She's never developed a strong interest in hunting, but coming from fascination with the bags I've built, she's expressing interest in my kit rifle (Lyman).  Her husband is a good friend, and I've already provided him the details to buy her a kit for Christmas.  He's never expressed an interest in muzzleloading, but he sure wears a lot of his wife's leathergoods.  And so it goes.

I'm sure Alaska spawns or attracts a higher proportion of people interested in self-sufficiency, but especially in small towns across the continent there are lots more.  Since folks in those small town also reflect a high proportion of outdoor enthusiasts, I'd have to guess the only thing stopping them from venturing into traditional muzzleloading and homemade gear is lack of information.  And the major manufacturers buying magazine advertizing certainly won't stear them away from factory-made gear!

I'm surprised you haven't come across the Traditions kits.  They're all over the web and available though a wide range of big box stores.  Though crude by many standards, they are inexpensive and turn out fully functional rifles.  Probably nothing historically accurate in the lot of them, but they're not inlines and folks can build their own with them.  They're a foot in the door to traditional shooting, and an important one, I think.

northmn

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #12 on: October 19, 2008, 02:56:05 AM »
When we talk about inlines I will assume you mean the newer generation of longer barreled guns like the Omega or the TC Encore.  There are people that shoot these quite a bit and work up loads for them so that they do get deer and other game.  With the newer faster twists they are not hopeless and can be fairly accurate.  I showed a flintlock I built to an individual that shoots an Encore and he was unimpressed.  "Not enough time"  to work up loads or learn one or whatever.
He was glad to see that scopes may be allowed in the ML season.  A co-worker of mine uses a bolt action ML with scope during regular season to force himself to shoot instead of emptying a pump shotgun. Gets deer at over 100 yards with it.  They work well enough for many that they do not want to change.  They use the phoney black powder and spend a fortune on ammo and think everything is better.
They have been brain washed by marketers into believing the "modern ML's" are easier and that RB's bounce off game.  What gets you is that the gear is totally a joke.  The minnie was invented for warfare as an ideal slug for easy and rapid reloading.  If one is used that fits the bore properly and with a heavier skirt the minnie will outdo any of the modern marvels.  The whitworth rifle will outshoot them hands down.  In the 1870's the Irish used ML's with bullets against the US in a competition in which the US won by one shot.  1000 yards.  Always thought it would be fun to build up a rifle of that type to show off with against a modern gun.  Wouldn't convert them, the modrn marvels are also priced right and found in sporting goods stores, traditional arms are not.

DP

Offline Dan

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #13 on: October 19, 2008, 06:14:07 AM »
A neighbor of mine, otherwise a rational fellow, is a disciple of the inline for this season, a scoped crossbow for that season and some newfangled contraption made by a company that carries the name of the Honorable John Moses Browning...for another season.  He claims smaller groups with the latter but I've not seen proof of that; quite the contrary actually.  Now I want you to know it bothers him greatly to look at targets perforated by my flinter.  I can see it in his eyes.  His eyes are younger, he uses scopes and he does not understand.  His name is Larry....the Newfangled Guy.? ???  I am however almost infinitely patient and in time I will prevail.  Most likely when he cracks a rock on steel the first time.

I made one of those targets once, sitting beside a lawman with one of those obnoxious black rifles, hardly as long as my arm, festooned with a vast array of attachments.  He fired off a bag rest and it had an Aimpoint sight on top.  His "friends"...perhaps "peers" is a better word;  they looked at the targets with high quality optics and began to chide him w/o mercy.  Not having such benefit I merely finished the string of 5 and went down to retrieve the paper when the line was cold.  Looking at his target I concluded the safest place down range was the black of his paper.  He looked at my target and turned his head away real quick like, sort of like if he didn't see a 1.5" group made by a flintlock it really didn't exist.  I've seen pointers pick up a dove by mistake and it's a similar expression.  Sad affair anyway, what with his responsibility to serve and protect.   I noticed they...him and his "peers" seemed shocked, as a group, when my 3rd patch came out cleanish before casing the rifle.  Two myths in one day, down in flames.

I don't care much for those boys and their toys, but my neighbor has a chance at redemption. Inlines are a lot like airboats. So's their owners for the most part.

BrownBear

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #14 on: October 19, 2008, 09:05:18 AM »
I suspect the deciding factor here in Alaska is the prohibition against scopes during the special primitive weapon seasons, though they can be used during the regular season.  Almost no one uses MLs during the regular season, while the primitive weapon seasons are usually in pretty desireable locations and time slots.

With open sights, inlines and their flatter trajectories just don't hold any advantage over tradiotional guns.  It's just a lot easier to "sell" the sidelocks.

northmn

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #15 on: October 19, 2008, 01:03:19 PM »
The biggest thing about the in line is the marketing hype and availability of black.  A flintlock needs real black powder.  A traditional percussion works better with real black.  Try buying real black at a Gander Mountain or Cabelas.  We have a local individual that sells black, but he is past retirement age and you have a choice between GOEX and GOEX.  I can buy substitutes about anywhere that sells guns. There was a person on another site about cast bullets that claimed to have shot a rag elk and a couple of deer with a traditional Pennsylvania styled Italian percussion in 45.  He now used in lines.  When I mentioned that a 45 was considered a little light but he made meat, he made a comment to the effect that that was before everyone told him everyone told him that it wouldn't work.  I cannot buy a traditional styled rifle anywhere close to home.  I can drive 140 miles to a Cabela's and get one, but compare prices to a plastic special.  Some claim good accuracy with in lines and I have seen targets in the black.  Most that do use loose powder instead of pellets.  Most loads using pellets are rather stiff for the gun weight, which is another thing that makes in lines a joke.  Look at the loads used for the rifle weight. 

DP

451whitworth

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #16 on: October 19, 2008, 05:17:28 PM »
back in '87 Missouri had their first dedicated muzzleloader season for deer. how it worked was to get the extra ten days afield in December you had to buy a muzzleloading tag and hunt only with a muzzleloader during the regular firearms season in November. you couldn't hunt with a centerfire during Nov. then pick up the ML for Dec. it was all or nothing with the ML. it was announced 11 months before taking place. the only inline on the market then was the Knight MK-85 and nobody knew who Knight was or knew what an inline was so nobody had one. everyone bought T/C and CVA caplocks. i was in high school and wanted those extra days so i saved and bought a Renegade .54 cal. i had killed two deer with a recurve by then so i didn't think a ML would be a handicap at all. i had no idea what i was doing with ML's but got good groups with maxihunter bullets. i remember the same thing with people shooting traditional style MLers as with "a typical inline hunter/shooter". people with the caplocks were just like the example inline shooter. 

AeroE

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #17 on: October 19, 2008, 06:12:06 PM »
A sad thread that not only illustrates, but exacerbates, the divisions amongst our various shooting clans.

I can find the same thread at AR15.com, or at Benchrest Central.com, or at Shotgunners.com.  The only difference will be which firearm is deemed Supreme Above All, and all the rest barely warrant the steel required to make them.

No person's choice of firearm deserves criticism.  What we should be doing is sharing our particular passion with open minds, no matter which type of gun we choose.  You never know, you might learn something interesting about SUR's and EBR's (Sport Utility Rifles and Evil Black Rifles).  You'll also need everyone else to watch your backs when the gun grabbers start their shenanigans.

Probably ought to make sure your own house is clean before criticising the neighbors.  The sport of building and shooting contemporary flint or percussion rifles is contaminated by the use of modern materials and machine shop methods if you want to take this position to the extreme.

Look for common ground, not obstacles.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 06:24:36 PM by AeroE »

ottawa

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #18 on: October 19, 2008, 07:17:52 PM »
one thing i have notice about in liners compared to traditonlalist is the habit of throwing the in line away when the breach sticks i have received 3 in this manore and have traded them all but one that one is on recall and I'm waiting for the new one in the mail but if any of you guys feel the urge to throw any of your caplocks or flinters away just give me and email ;D because we all know you cant clean a ML with a stuck breechplug in it  :D

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #19 on: October 19, 2008, 08:12:12 PM »
Inexperienced black powder shooters, Its not just with inline shooters, it happens with all firearms shooters when there's no one to help lend a hand and teach you the sport.

Some think that a 3" group @ 100 yards with a scoped 30-06 is a great group.

I know i had to teach my brother in law to stop pounding on the bullet with the ramrod when i let him shoot my muzzle loader.

Daryl

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #20 on: October 19, 2008, 08:31:59 PM »
Gotta be sure the ball is down on the powder until the rod bounces out of the barrel, doan-cha know? See it every year at Hefley - and I'm sure as most all other shoots around the world.

tg

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #21 on: October 20, 2008, 04:18:05 AM »
"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Gotta be sure the ball is down on the powder until the rod bounces out of the barrel, doan-cha know?"


 More than likely it would be one of those modern bullets than a ball,there is a great number of hunters carrying reasonably traditional styled sidelocks  loaded with the latest modern design bullet and sporting modern  style aperture sights which gives them the same basic outfit as the inline hunters ballisticaly and sighting  except there is a hammer on the side of the gun, the "in-line" thing is realy meaningless as one can so easily make the comparable hunting outfit out of a sidelock and call it traditional because there were miine balls in the civil war and peep sights on crossbows in the 14th century...just a couple of the typical "reasons" given to call such a rig a traditional hunting outfit.
 

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #22 on: October 20, 2008, 05:01:33 AM »
A traditional percussion works better with real

I got to tell ya, I was surprised today when i took my traditions kentucky outside today for a little fun. I used Pyrodex P as the main charge *50gr* and after fiddling around with finding the right amount of powder to put in the pan *4f goex* that sucker was lighting off like i was loaded with pure black powder.  I installed an RMC vent liner some months ago which has a bigger hole than the factory and i just pushed a few grained into the flast hole and then cleared it,Primed and fired a dozen shots with only 1 flash in the pan and 2 hits to the frizzen that didnt do anything until i cleaned the flint off.

Tomorrow i plan on doing some more shooting! I love this rifle but its hard for me to get the real stuff so this was a very pleasant finding that allows me to take her out to the range and enjoy some smoke.

northmn

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #23 on: October 20, 2008, 05:25:49 AM »
Pyrodex Select seemed to work ok for me but I had a can of RS that would only pattern at 100 yards with my 50 percussion and would hang fire and perform other interesting tricks.  I still got the best accuracy with BP.  Almost all of the "substitute" black powders have double the shot to shot variance over black. I ahve heard other claim good results with the stuff but I stick to black.  You can mail order black from Grafs.  I got 5 pounds of black for $85.  Locally I would have to pay about $130 for subs. I shoot black.

DP

Candle Snuffer

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #24 on: October 20, 2008, 02:16:54 PM »
Does anyone know if Goex has had any luck in "deregulating" the amount of powder they can ship?  Seems to me that they had a campaign going (might still be), to do just that, where as they could ship as little as one pound of powder to a buyer and I think it also had something to do with the "hazard" fee as well.

Regardless, (and I know all of us would like to see some deregulation of real black powder), being able to buy as little as 5 pounds of the real stuff has been a step forward.

As far as anyone comparing a modern inline to a traditional muzzle loader there is no comparison whatsoever.  This has been stated in a letter from the President of Pedersoli a few years back, and is floating around on the TMA boards and/or in some folks personal files.

There are far to many folks (including most game commisions) that do not understand a modern muzzle loading firearm from a traditional muzzle loading firearm.  When many "Primitive" muzzle loading seasons were set up, modern muzzle loading firearms (Inlines) did not exist.

Today these primitive firearm seasons are now called "Muzzle Loading Seasons" and reflect nothing whatsoever of the hard work put in by the traditional crowd to create these second seasons as far back as the 70's to create and maintain a "traditional muzzle loading firearm's hunting season" in such a way as our ancestors hunted before these Modern Inlines scabbed in on the traditional hunting community.

So here's what we have today; scoped plastic stocked stainless steel barreled Inlines using fake black powder and modern smokeless powder along with sabot
bullets and modern rifle primers.  Sure sounds like a modern firearm to me...

So,,, which season do these Modern Inlines belong in?  It's obvious to many of us who have been around this sport for many years that they do "not" belong in the pre established "Primitive Firearm Seasons" prior to their introduction in the '80's...  They belong in the "Modern Firearm Seasons"...  That's a no brainer.

What we have now in most cases is hunting seasons crossing over allowing what now has become obvious, any modern or primitive firearm in these late (special) hunting seasons.  A simple solution;  Re'create the hunting seasons with early and late hunting seasons and allow the hunter to choose his firearm to use.  Traditional firearm hunters will still use their traditional smokepoles, while non-traditional hunters will chuck their Modern Inlines and hunt with their .270's and 30-06's...

Remember, it was the traditional crowd of hunters that lobbied for and helped to created most these States "Primitive Muzzle Loading Hunting Seasons" not the Modern Inline crowd that have been scabbing on to these special hunting seasons for decades.  Let the Modern Inline crowd lobby for their own special hunting season is my thoughts...  

Then again in the past several decades it has become obvious to me and many others that todays mind set is, "why do it if I don't have to.  Let someone else do all the work.  It's easier to scab in on the end results."

What a crock of bull our society has become that can't distinguish a Modern Firearm from a Traditional Firearm...  Very sad state of affairs indeed.