Author Topic: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!  (Read 23933 times)

Candle Snuffer

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2008, 03:18:19 PM »
Here is the Pedersoli Letter I referred to in my post above;

BillinOregon from the Muzzleloading Forum received this letter from Pedersoli:

Dear Mr. Powell,

In the past we allowed Mr. Bridges to test our traditional ML rifles as well as our inline ML rifles and he had our cooperation and limited sponsorship. Due to the new path Mr. Bridges has taken , in which traditional muzzle loading rifles would no longer have their current exclusive hunting period and in which inline rifles would hunt at the same time as the traditional rifles, we have withdrawn our former support and sponsorship of Toby Bridges.

The Davide Pedersoli company has advised Mr. Toby Bridges to remove our company name from any list of sponsors who support his lobbying efforts because even though we manufacture in-line muzzle loading rifles, we strongly support the use of traditional types of flintlock and percussion lock rifles during hunting periods assigned to muzzle loading rifles.
We always believed that the hunting with muzzleloading guns, both traditional and modern black powder in-line rifles, could co-exist, even if two different muzzleloading hunting seasons would be more required. Certainly we never thought they could get into conflict with each other.
We regret Toby Bridge's decision which surprised us, considering that in the past he took important positions, which we could share, but absolutely not his last one.
The use of traditional muzzleloading rifles for hunting has all the historical, political and rational reasons to continue and to expand and cannot be forced to die, as Toby Bridges warns and predicts (and is trying to make happen) nor can be the enthusiasm and will of people who are dedicated to this traditional sector be disregarded. On the contrary, the traditional muzzle loading guns contributed surely much more than the modern inline muzzleloading guns have to the muzzle loading hunting being accepted in our states. Rather than trying to promote the inline rifles and push aside the exclusive hunting season for traditional percussion or flintlock rifles we should all be working to strengthen the separation of hunting seasons for archers, traditional muzzle loading rifles, the powerful inline rifles and of course the modern cartridge rifles.

The inline rifles compare directly with modern high power cartridge rifles and we hope that all government officials involved with making or changing hunting rules will recognize the big advantage in power and range which inline rifles (which use conical bullets) have over the traditional antique or replica rifles which use round ball bullets. Both archery hunters and traditional muzzle loading rifle hunters accept the great challenge and limitation of their hunting weapons, the need to stalk the game and get very close in order to make a clean killing shot. For the inline rifle and modern cartridge rifle hunters a much different challenge is presented and the mixing of traditional and inline rifles in the field at the same time would be unexceptable to the vast majority of traditional muzzle loading rifle users.

I read the letter Toby Bridges published in his web site in which he explained he has been misunderstood. I acknowledge his effort, however this letter gives me the opportunity to contradict Toby about the in-line rifles being the natural modern evolution of the muzzleloading guns.
The real modern aspect was when many years ago some of the American states opened the hunting season to the muzzleloading guns. This was a modernity sign! What happened later with the introduction of the in-line rifles and the continuous improvements to reach high performances, such as the use of pelletized substitute powder, waterproof ignition systems or sabot bullets, etc. made the modern muzzloading guns get closer to the modern cartridge gun performance. I am convinced that the hunters using in-line rifles are only taking advantage of this enhanced performance in a dedicated muzzleloading hunting season. I am also convinced that if the muzzleloading hunting season becomes an "open hunting season", several of the users of the in-line rifles will drop their rifles to hunt only with the modern ones.
I have to say that I am fond of the hunt in all its aspects, I am a hunter with modern guns, with cartridge guns and with muzzleloading traditional guns.

Davide Pedersoli is not against the modern In-line rifle hunting, which we consider as an alternative and different activity from the one with traditional guns . Without doubt, hunting with traditional guns must be protected and sustained in the spirit of the rules approved in many of the American states because it gives the American sportsman a hunting challenge and emotional satisfaction which no other type of gun can give.

Pierangelo Pedersoli,
President


Davide Pedersoli & C.
Via Artigiani 57
I-25063 Gardone Valtrompia (Brescia) Italy
ph.030 8915000 fax 030 8911019
www.davide-pedersoli.com    
 

Offline Dan

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #26 on: October 20, 2008, 04:35:33 PM »
Well, the letter says a lot and I appreciate your posting it.  It is refreshing to read that somebody that makes both types of firearms can still distinguish the difference.

My previous post was intended to make light of the prevailing mindset I see in most, not all, inline shooters.  I still have a sense of humor and they are as a group, an average cross section of Americana.  They are, as a group, very deep in a sea of ignorance.  There are exceptions of course, both in mentality and knowledge.  There are exceptions in local circumstances as well. As an example, not long ago I learned that the availability of BP in Alaska is close enough to zero to make it near perfect.

There are a great many issues at play in this discussion and I doubt my words will influence anyone, but on the off chance, here goes.

There is discussion above regarding the broader view of what is good for shooting sports and what is not. Unity and division sums it up.  Well, the Dems/Liberals perceive inlines as modern guns and are actively pursuing legislation on state and federal levels to tighten regulation.  In many cases they seek to treat inlines as firearms under the NFA.  It falls under the banner of "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..."  I do not say they are right, don't shoot the messenger please.  It is mentioned only to raise a counterpoint, that being the issue is divisive as a matter of convenience to them and our calls for unity influence them not.  They see a rifle that shoots large bullets at sometimes high velocity and are scope sighted, something decidedly NOT primitive.

There is an economic issue at play too.  I'm sorry, but whether we approve or not, it is hard to ignore the point that a $150 Knight in blister pack on the shelf at Wal-Mart is going to sell.  It will enable the buyer to participate in the muzzle season cheaply, thus extending his or her hunting season and participation in the sport. It is not entirely a bad thing, regardless of philosophy, for the number of hunters buying licenses is dwindling each year in this country.  Hey, you can even put a $34.95 "Big Azzed Buck" scope on it too.  The problem is this:  Nobody, but nobody is manufacturing primitive muzzle loaders, flint or cap lock, which are cost competitive.  It is a matter of scale and results because various states have made a decision to lump all "muzzle loaders" in one basket.  It is good and evil at once, but it is the landscape before us.  My single flintlock cost a lot of money, over 10 times what the Knight runs....do the math and imagine the financial situation of the average shooter.

Now I think the basic reason traditional hunters eschew the inline is self explanatory.  They are, by name, traditionalists.  Why would one reasonably expect them to welcome with open arms those are are not into the primitive seasons?  Why would they embrace "shooters" in the field when they are hunters?  Therein lies a major fly in the ointment in my opinion, and the basis goes back to my comments about ducks.  There is a vast difference between hunters and shooters and in this case the preponderance of evidence in most circumstances indicates there is state sponsored class warfare at play.  It pits the two schools against each other in the name of raising participation and tax revenue, pure and simple.  Unfortunately, one of the "classes" is ignorant that the other does not hold their chosen arm in high regard.  We are even able to find the behavior associated with the such arms offensive.  They are likely to write us off as grumpy ol' -----...and keep doing what they do.

There are some states wherein the distinction between NFA firearms follows federal definition.  Muzzle loaders are not firearms under NFA.  The point is that in some states, convicted felons participate in primitive season hunts with the blessing of the state.  In Florida for example, felons may bow hunt but not use any firearm, regardless of type since Florida does not follow NFA convention.  We even classify air rifles as firearms down here.  Anyway, it irritates me that an ex-con can get out early in the season and have first crack at anything before I, with no criminal record, get my socks wet.  Reason?  I do not bow hunt.  My choice, so I just quietly pout about the matter. Mileage in your state may vary.  My point is one of law. If you control the law (legislature) you control what's happening. If you don't like the law, get active and force change.

It is MY opinion that primitive hunting and equipment should be congruent.  It is also my opinion that most states do their residents a vast disservice in promoting primitive seasons in the front of the season.  The activity should be one that extends the season but does not always provide subsidy to a given class of hunter. If one must have a primitive season, rotate it in chronological fashion.  Hey, I'd be OK with a frosty morning smokepole hunt.  I also think it would be appropriate that primitive weapons be allowed throughout the entire season for most of us have a choice of weapons to use in the hunt.  I rather don't give a hoot what is in my hands in any given month for I am a hunter more than a shooter. Regardless of the fact that I can realistically shoot game with every type of arm and at a great range, I choose to still hunt for the most part.  The ranges are seldom long and anything available these days would suffice, be it bow, shotgun, ML or modern rifle.

With all that said, and Lord knows there is more to espouse on the subject.  I find inline shooters misled by marketing technique and financial means.  Thus they are susceptible to my own "marketing".  If two dozen neophytes take to the field with an inline that otherwise would not, it is a good thing.  If I can sway half of them to a higher plane of the sporting fields I've done my job....and I will try to do so. Count on it.

That is all.

Dan

Wyoming Mike

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #27 on: October 20, 2008, 05:32:51 PM »
What has been mentioned here has been my experience with people who shoot inlines.  Wyoming does not have a special primative rifle season so there is not much incentive to get one.  The ones who do are the ones who want the newest Cool New Toy.

To get a little new blood in the local club I broght up the notion of allowing inlines to shoot with up as long as they used a patched roundball and open irons sightes just like the rest of us.  My thinking was that when they found they couldn't come close to shooting with the traditional rifles a few of them would get interested and come over from the dark side.  No such luck.  Most of the rest of the club wanted nothing to do with them.

BrownBear

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2008, 06:26:08 PM »
Most of the rest of the club wanted nothing to do with them.

Makes it kind of hard to win converts, don't it!!!!!!

BrownBear

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2008, 07:47:58 PM »
You know, this whole topic has planted seeds for a good idea.

I'm going to stir around a bit and see if I can't talk up a shooting match between inlines and traditionals.  All open sights.  All offhand.  Ought to be great fun and instructive to all.

On further thought, I'm going to suggest a "bonus round" of shooting, kind of like when my daughter was compeating for rodeo queen.  Some inspired organizer set it up so they not only had to look purty, but had to ride competitvely.  Their bonus round came when contestants had to swap horses with each other and do it all again.

I know it's going to be hard on the soul for many of us to trade guns with an inline shooter for a few shots.  But what better way to get a traditional gun into the mitts of an inline shooter? 

Might be a whole lot of fun.  Maybe even better if we can outshoot the inline shooters with their own guns.  As noted before, almost none of these guys practice offhand, so it ought to be easy, even with a strange gun.

chuck-ia

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2008, 08:38:28 PM »
brownbear, a shooting match would be a good idea, just don't say anything about having to shoot offhand to the inliners, until after they post their targets. chuck-ia

arcticap

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2008, 09:05:30 PM »
Quote
It's obvious to many of us who have been around this sport for many years that they do "not" belong in the pre established "Primitive Firearm Seasons" prior to their introduction in the '80's...  They belong in the "Modern Firearm Seasons"...  That's a no brainer.
The original MA primitive season was for smoothbores only. The traditional smoothbore season was intentionally changed for a good reason.
Deer populations exploded and even archery seasons were greatly expanded.
If it wasn't for inlines reviving the sport, muzzle loader hunting was dead in the water and couldn't be justified keeping as the earliest deer hunting season as it originally was here in CT either. We don't even have a public land general firearms season here. It's either muzzle loader, archery or shotgun.
It's the rifled barrel that is the common denominator in every state now since that's about the only gun trait that isn't outlawed anywhere.
Maybe we should define legal muzzle loaders as only those guns with smooth bores?
That's just like criticizing inlines. Having a rifled barrel doubles the reach of the projectile that no other single rifle innovation alone does.
What is it that makes some folks think that rifling isn't modern and newfangled?
What if someone advocated that having a rifled barrel is cheating traditionalism? Where would the wrangling have us end up?
Once rifled barrels were accepted as being part of traditional muzzle loading, the door was opened and history was made. Why should anyone be reactionary and say that anything should be the way it was? Does anyone in their right mind advocate returning to slavery since that was the way it originally was in the U.S., or that women shouldn't vote?
States exercise their freedom to define muzzle loading hunting seasons in any way they choose. That's the nature of our system of self-government that folks have fought and died for.
Our system promotes freedom and justice for most if not all, not just for the minority viewpoint.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 09:19:39 PM by arcticap »

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2008, 09:13:16 PM »
This thread is nearly torn!! :-X

My original intent was to show how the typical in line and user took care (misused) his rifle and how lousy he or it shot although all the fancy scopes, sand bags, shooting bench, bullets, large target close in was/were used. :)

BrownBear

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2008, 09:39:00 PM »
Boy, aren't you right!!!!!!

The ones I know, their ONLY offhand shots are at deer.  Never seen one yet stand up and walk away from the bench with his gun in his hand, unless it was to put it in his car.

Candle Snuffer

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2008, 09:48:49 PM »
I think it still shows what you were looking for Roger.  Yes, perhaps it does show a bit more then asked for,  but it's hard to filter off some of the reasoning behind the poor traits of the inline users without establishing the where and why of these poor existing traits.

A good example would be Knight wanting to put forth a rifle that had the same feel as a 30-06.  By doing so he embedded the idea that you don't need to clean an Inline rifle right away after the day's use if you only shot it a few times.  Pyrodex makers also propelled this notion of poor muzzleloading rifle maintenance along with Wonder Lube.  Shoot it and throw it in the corner and clean it whenever you feel like it...  That's a crock in itself.

There have been some good ideas come from this thread I do believe.  I like the idea of getting the Inline users to the range and going one on one in some competition with the traditionalist, but it takes both sides to go to the range and do this and what I've seen, heard, and read, we're not going to see this happen very often from the Inline users side as they simply do not seem to give a hoot how they shoot.

Just some added thoughts.  Nothing personal towards anyone. :)

  
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 09:52:02 PM by Candle Snuffer »

Offline Dan

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2008, 11:41:02 PM »
This thread is nearly torn!! :-X

My original intent was to show how the typical in line and user took care (misused) his rifle and how lousy he or it shot although all the fancy scopes, sand bags, shooting bench, bullets, large target close in was/were used. :)

Oh, you mean like the fellow a couple of weeks ago that left the ramrod in his Omega?  Gotcha.  He's gonna make some reconstructive surgeon a few house payments before it's over, but he'll live.

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2008, 12:12:47 AM »
 :o where did this happen at?

Offline Dan

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2008, 12:52:32 AM »
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida.  I was not there when it happened.  A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle.  It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there.  From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2008, 01:00:17 AM »
ouch.

chuck-ia

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2008, 01:43:37 AM »
We had a shoot in September and there was 2 or 3 young guys, (under 16) who were shooting inlines with round balls, they did very well, beat some of us older guys, these kids belong to a 4-H shooting club and take shooting very serious, as does their coach (mother). We usually let them shoot our real guns when they show up at the range when we are there, I am hoping it is just a matter of time before they develop a interest in trad. guns, they really get a kick out of shooting our flintlocks. As for getting the adults who hunt with an inline at our shoots, just ain't gonna happen. The biggest reason (I think) is they would have to shoot offhand. Or maybe they just could not handle being beat with a trad. gun? Maybe if they got to shoot side by side with trad. guns they might not see that big of an advantage? I am talking short range. I know, I know, they are not going to give up their scope, sabots, pellets, bipod , all these things giving an advantage for that 200 yard shot, for a simple trad. gun with iron sights shooting a patched round ball where range is limited. chuck-ia

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2008, 02:31:56 AM »
Even with a scoped inline and 4 grand into a hunt, they still miss those shots because they dont ever practice off hand shooting.

Bench rest and shooting bags are great for working up an accurate load but at the end, you NEED to shoot under field conditions to hit what you are aiming at.

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2008, 02:39:08 AM »
Go ahead and try to run a shoot with inlines/traditional. I hope it works for you.
We have tried..offered nice prizes and even had a bbq and chili offering for chow. Lots of inlines sold locally. Our shoot was a month before deer season..not one inline shooter showed up. Not one.
After all the work we put into this , I said I would not do it again. IMO trying to woo inline shooters is a waste of time.  

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2008, 02:59:53 AM »
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida.  I was not there when it happened.  A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle.  It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there.  From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
Any photos available to post???????   I have seen several (ok at least a couple rods shot out of mls no harm except  embarassment and sore shoulders!

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2008, 03:33:36 AM »
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida.  I was not there when it happened.  A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle.  It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there.  From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
Any photos available to post???????   I have seen several (ok at least a couple rods shot out of mls no harm except  embarassment and sore shoulders!

I did it once too expect i had a lower powder charge of 90gr RS and a 385gr great plains conical. Talk about some recoil with an aluminum ramrod!

Always possible the guy was trying to shoot smokeless in it too as most newbies are out of contact with what you can shoot in such and such rifle.

tg

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2008, 03:37:16 AM »
"Once rifled barrels were accepted as being part of traditional muzzle loading, the door was opened and history was made. Why should anyone be reactionary and say that anything should be the way it was? Does anyone in their right mind advocate returning to slavery since that was the way it originally was in the U.S., or that women shouldn't vote?"

Man you have missed the boat so far you could take a long walk and not get your feet wet, that was about the pooerst thought out bunch of irrelevant BS put forth to justify something which does not belong in a particular part of the hunting arena I have ever heard.

Leatherbelly

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2008, 03:46:53 AM »
  Hey you guys,don't pick on cripples and retards!! (Inline shooters)hehehe

frontier gander

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2008, 04:06:59 AM »
Pre-1840 is where most restrictions are at for traditional muzzle loading at rendezvous. Be a little odd walking into rondy dressed in buckskins and carrying a scoped, camo inline with your powderhorn slung over your shoulder  :D

Candle Snuffer

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2008, 04:16:38 AM »
Go ahead and try to run a shoot with inlines/traditional. I hope it works for you.
We have tried..offered nice prizes and even had a bbq and chili offering for chow. Lots of inlines sold locally. Our shoot was a month before deer season..not one inline shooter showed up. Not one.
After all the work we put into this , I said I would not do it again. IMO trying to woo inline shooters is a waste of time.  

I remember you telling us about this Bob, when it took place.  I also remember thinking that it just didn't surprise me in the least.

There has been talk of inviting the Inline crowd in to shoot with the traditionalist.  When one thinks about it the Inline group has had since the 1980's to organize themselves into shooting groups like we traditionalist do, but to my knowledge they have failed to act on any venture in this direction.

Would a traditional muzzle loading group who shoots monthly invite those folks who shoot 30-06's, .270's, .243's, and so on to take part in a monthly muzzle loading match using their modern cartridge firearms?  I don't think so,,, so why should we traditionalist invite the modern Inline shooters to take part.  Afterall, a modern Inline is just that as discribed by Pedersoli in their letter about the modern inline not belonging in the same group as traditionalist.

I see no reason to extend a hand to these people who have little or no regard for the sport of muzzle loading and are buying cheep just to gut shoot a critter from two hundred yards or less just for the sake of extending their hunting season.  This alone IMHO doesn't speak very highly if at all about their mind set.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 04:19:49 AM by Candle Snuffer »

northmn

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2008, 04:20:22 AM »
One of the underlying philosophies is that ML seasons wee for a "primitive" weapon.  I have always argued that they were for a "historical" weapon.  A world of difference.  I was there when we met with MNDNR officials getting the ML seaons and attended a couple of meetings.  Mostly the ML shooters wanted to be able to rendezvous with friends out in the woods.  In MN the ML season is held after the regular firearms season.  When shooters thought that it would be an earlier season ML's were selling like hotcakes.  They were commonly TC Hawkens and their clones.  And the folks didn't know how to make them go bang.  Knight came along and advertized "enjoy the special seasons with out the hassle".  In another words, enjoy the ML season without using a ML.  Funny thing is that a large number of traditionalists hunt with family and hunt in the regular season like myself.  Most buy the inlines to hunt the extra season.  One of the irritating things about modern developments is that the users thing they deserve the same recognition as the ones using the proper equipment.  Compound bow shooters got very upset when Pope and Young banned bows with more than 65% let off.  Same with ML hunters that think a trophy taken with a inline is the same as with a flintlock.  Actually I find it irritating even if it isn't a book animal.  As to the extra "power" and range of inlines, buy a Pedersoli Gibbs rifle.  It will kick the $#@* out any inline with their modern Sabot loads, etc.  They are a joke.  A silly comprimise between a true slug rifle like the ones Ned Roberts wrote about and the round ball rifles.  

DP

Offline Dan

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Re: A typical in line hunter/shooter!!
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2008, 03:21:44 PM »
Hernando Sportsman Club, Hernando County Florida.  I was not there when it happened.  A range officer told me about it when I uncased a BP target rifle.  It was about 2-3 weeks ago, the day before I was there.  From what I was told the fellow got involved in conversation with a friend during the loading process, then proceeded to totally destroy his gun, some of his face and right forearm.
Any photos available to post???????   I have seen several (ok at least a couple rods shot out of mls no harm except  embarassment and sore shoulders!

No photos, sorry.  I did see the stains on the concrete and bench if that helps. There was no doubt that somebody got hurt there.