Author Topic: Royland Southgate (Read 30437 times)

JCKelly · « **on:** March 22, 2011, 01:26:50 AM »

I've acquired a small bug, which has been gnawing at me about Southgate rifles. When I was 12 there was an article in the American Rifleman about him. I did want one of those rifles but $125 was a number way beyond even thinking.

So who knows what about this man? I'd like to put some stuff together on Southgate, a small pamphlet if possible.

T*O*F · « **Reply #1 on:** March 22, 2011, 03:09:13 AM »

We discussed Southgate extensively several years ago. That information resides in the OLD archives from the previous site.

JCKelly · « **Reply #2 on:** March 22, 2011, 05:02:49 PM »

I searched for Southgate and found a number of entries for 2009 & 2010

So how does one find the OLD archives from the previous site?

A simple Southgate question I have would be serial # vs year of mfg . . . I have 5 so far:
Serial No. Year
57 about 1950
507 unmarked
777 1967
958 1974
1008 last made, about 1979

T*O*F · « **Reply #3 on:** March 22, 2011, 09:27:05 PM »

Quote

So how does one find the OLD archives from the previous site?

Click on the ALR logo above. Then click on ALR archives. If you can't login, then you weren't a member back then and Dennis will have to help you with that.

smokinbuck · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2011, 12:07:40 AM »

JC,
I had the privilege of knowing Royland, and his brother Bailey, when I lived in Nashville. For dates of manufacture based on seriel numbers, go the the back of an older, maybe new one also, Dixie catalogue, they have a fairly comprehensive listing.
Mark

JCKelly · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2011, 03:18:19 AM »

Thanks, those #'s are in my 2009 Dixie catalog, right where I never looked.

From this distance (miles, years) I have thought Southgate represented a continuum of muzzle-loading rifle building, perhaps more so than the well-known makers of the last 30-40 years.

Tennessee is where one normally thinks of muzzle loaders being built right on through the 19th Century until present. Here in Michigan I know of one man, George Barnes, who was making muzzle-loaders in the 1930's & 40's. He had first set up shop in 1905 as a gunsmith. Haven't yet seen one of his guns, just chatted some with a relative. George's father Thomas Washington Barnes had set up shop in Vassar, Michigan in 1865.

JCKelly · « **Reply #6 on:** March 25, 2011, 07:03:04 PM »

Looked through the Old Archives, gunbroker & Dixie, put together a modified serial number list for Southgate. Ethnic Pennsylvanian that I am, stranded here in Michigan, I'd like to put together information on Royland Southgate. Should be done by someone, whilst those who knew him are still this side of the snow (grass, to you Southerners).

Serial Numbers

The Dixie Gun Works, Inc. 2009 catalog contains this list of Royland Southgate rifle serial numbers by date of manufacture. There may be a few typographical errors, for example the year 1977 is not included. Perhaps the serial numbers for 1971 could be 880 or 881 through 906.

Year    Serial No.    Total   Year    Serial No.   Total   Year    Serial No.    Total
1946 - 49   1 - 43    43   1960    524 -562    39   1969   792 - 823    32
1950   44 - 90    47   1961   563 - 600    38   1970   824 - 879    56
1951   91 - 138    48   1962   601 - 628 28   1971   871 - 906    35
1952   139 - 234    96   1963   629 - 663     35   1972   907 - 922    16
1953   235 - 298    64   1964   664 -686    23   1973   923 - 946    24
1954   299 - 337    39   1965   687 - 719 33   1974   947 - 997 31
1955   338 - 381    44   1966   720 - 759    40   1975   972 - 887    16
1956   382 - 413    32   1967   ? - ?    ?   1976   ?   ?
1957   414 - 447    34   1968   760 - 791    32   1977   1007   ?
1958   448 - 488    41            1978   ?   ?
1959   489 - 523    35            1979   ?   ?

Betcha an ounce of lead that production peak in 1952 came from the Rifleman article.    The one wherein $125 was an incomprehensable number to a 12 year-old.

These 987 guns include 158 pistols which were numbered in succession with the rifles. Some of these rifles have gone to Italy, Germany, England, Australia and New Zealand. All guns before No. 268 were made in Madison, Tennessee, the remainder in Franklin, Tennessee where Southgate lived until his death in 1979.

Confirmed Numbers   Source

1967   777   Percussion rifle on Gunbroker.com.

1974   949   Archives americanlongrifles.com
   958   Dixie Gun Works rifle for sale

1977   1007    Delivered to Slim Pickens' ranch in Montana.
   1008   Said to be the last rifle built.

Well, the table looks better on my computer than it does here.

T*O*F · « **Reply #7 on:** March 25, 2011, 08:30:49 PM »

Jim, when typing evenly spaced lists, it is easier to use the pre-formatted text button from BBC tag menu. It's on the top tow....7th from the right. You click on it and then type between the brackets. You ;can also use the tables function, but it's more complicated. Also, use the preview button to see how everything lines up, make adjustments, and then post it.

Year     Serial No.   Total   
1946 - 49  01 - 43      43
1950       44 - 90      47
1951       91 - 138     48
1952      139 - 234     96
1953      235 - 298     64
1954      299 - 337     39
1955      338 - 381     44
1956      382 - 413     32
1957      414 - 447     34
1958      448 - 488     41
1959      489 - 523     35
1960      524 -562      39
1961      563 - 600     38
1962      601 - 628     28
1963      629 - 663     35
1964      664  -686     23
1965      687 - 719     33
1966      720 - 759     40
1967      ?   -   ?      ?
1968      760 - 791     32
1969      792 - 823     32
1970      824 - 879     56
1971      871 - 906     35
1972      907 - 922     16
1973      923 - 946     24
1974      947 - 997     31
1975      972 - 887     16
1976        ? -  ?       ?
1977      1007 - ?       ?
1978        ? -  ?       ?
1979        ?  - ?       ?

JCKelly · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2011, 12:58:41 AM »

R. SOUTHGATE, MADISON, TENN. NEW "Tenn. Maid" Kaintuck muzzle loading rifles, pistols. Restoring, reboring or relining on all types antiques. Catalog for stamped envelope.

This ad in The American Rifleman started it for me. Or maybe it was the article in the July, Nineteen Fifty-Two issue - THOSE TENN MAID "KAINTUCKS". Memories of my 1952 passion have faded. Mr. UPS plans to bring me one, finally, in the near future.

I scanned the article, have it in pdf. Not a clue how to put a pdf into this forum but if you want one gimme an email.

smokepole7 · « **Reply #9 on:** April 01, 2011, 08:44:31 PM »

I was privileged to work part time for R Southgate from 1970 until sometime in the mid-70s. I rifled barrels or ran the stamping machine making patchbox parts; sometimes the turret lathe making screws or something. I enjoyed the barrels the most and I was very good at it, making a couple of innovations which R had never tried before. Nobody called him Royland except his wife, Margaret. Most of his friends called him "South" or "Southgate." His brother Bailey was called "B. W." by almost everyone. He was also a gunsmith but was blinded in a black powder accident in 1967.

R did deliver #1007 to Slim Pickens at his ranch in Wyoming in September of 1977 and they went hunting pronghorns. While there R apparently had a stroke and was driven home by his brother-in-law. He was paralyzed on his right side and never really worked much after that. He did finish #1000 (his avowed masterpiece) and gave it to Sheriff Fleming Williams. His last numbered rifle, #1008 was presented to the son of his personal physician. #998 was not quite finished in the summer of 1978 when he told me to take it home and finish it myself. It was ready for stain and finish but I had hoped that he would put some wire inlay on it. He told me then that he would never be able to do that fine work again. He had regained his ability to walk and was left-handed but without his right hand was severely handicapped. He suffered another severe stroke in the Spring of 1979 and died in early June. He was 64 years old.

You will note that rifles were not always delivered in the order of their serial number. R made guns in batches of four to six and sometimes a later number would be finished before an earlier. In general, I believe the list in the DGW catalog is accurate as far as it goes.

JCKelly · « **Reply #10 on:** April 03, 2011, 08:48:37 PM »

Smokepole - thank you for this information. Based on this, other ALR comments, magazine articles (Rifleman, Saturday Evening Post) &c, I'm putting together a little maybe ten page pamplet on Southgate & his rifles. Just because no one else has.

Don't want to talk him up too much. If I like the caplock which is now somewhere in UPS, I might search for a flintlock as well.

Could you perhaps tell me what grade of steel Southgate used for his barrels?

Longknife · « **Reply #11 on:** April 06, 2011, 04:56:55 PM »

Heres one for ya!!!

http://www.gunsamerica.com//950171888/Guns/Rifles/Custom-Muzzleloader-Rifles/Percussion/Southgate_44_cal_KY_Long_Rifle.htm?wl=1

smokinbuck · « **Reply #12 on:** April 06, 2011, 09:55:38 PM »

Looked at the pictures and the lock is marked correctly and the overall rifle matches Royland's work but the signature on the barrel doesn't look like any I've seen before.
Mark

T*O*F · « **Reply #13 on:** April 06, 2011, 11:18:25 PM »

Clearly the signature on the lock and the one on the barrel were done by two separate hands, unless he signed the barrel after his stroke.

JCKelly · « **Reply #14 on:** April 07, 2011, 12:22:27 AM »

I believe he stamped the lockplate, engraved the barrel

smokinbuck · « **Reply #15 on:** April 07, 2011, 02:44:34 AM »

I've had a pistol and rifle that were stamped on both the lock plate and the barrel. The signature after the stroke is certainly a possibility.
Mark

JCKelly · « **Reply #16 on:** April 07, 2011, 06:03:34 PM »

The serial number on this caplock, for sale at GunsAmerica, is 659. That would make production about 1963.

Southgate's first stroke, per Smokepole April 1, 2011, came in 1977 at Slim Pickens' ranch in Wyoming, delivering rifle #1007.

If antiqueguns.com ever gets around to it, I do have percussion #507, of some indeterminate small caliber, coming to me. Cost about 1/3 of that gunsamerica piece. Name stamped on the lockplate, but engraved on the barrel similar to #659.

#777, in 1967, has the name stamped on barrel as well as lockplate.

Any & all Southgate information is welcome. When (?) I get #507 I will share details.

I am writing a small pamphlet on Southgate. Bought this rifle for personal sentimental reasons, otherwise I don't collect contemporary rifles.

smokepole7 · « **Reply #17 on:** April 08, 2011, 07:32:58 PM »

IMO the signature on the gun from Perkiomen is absolutely authentic. Really early guns were signed on the barrel. After he got the stamp made most were stamped both on the lock and barrel. Some were engraved on the barrel and stamped on the lock. It just depended on his mood at the time or if the customer requested an engraved signature or if there was special significance in the piece. I have six and they are all stamped except #998.

On the steel; I believe that very early gun barrels were drilled and filed octagon. Later he began to use a steel called Shelby tubing and filed that octagon. Still later he told me that he had dies made to extrude the Shelby Tubing into octagon shape. This was the steel he was using when I worked with him. I was present when a truckload of steel arrived. It was octagon and in twenty foot lengths. This meant he could get six 38" barrels from each length. That was his "standard" length and he charged a small fee for longer barrels. Turner Kirkland also bought this steel and sold it in 42" lengths as barrel blanks.

JCKelly · « **Reply #18 on:** April 08, 2011, 08:09:46 PM »

Thanks, Smokepole. Sounds like the octagonal (slightly rounded corners) tubing that Pa Keeler used here in Michigan to make his 48" long barrels. I used maybe three of them, .50 caliber, in my riflemaking days of yore.

Keeler got into the barrel making business after Douglas allegedly cut him off. Which they allegedly did after Keeler's December 1972 Muzzle Blasts article, Proof Testing New Barrels. In which was a photo of a 13/16" x .45 caliber barrel burst on the first shot with 50 grains 2F powder and one .437 patched ball. The ball was seated on the powder. No one was hurt, though Keeler didn't discuss condition of the shooter's clothing. Oh, yeah - the photo showed GR DOUGLAS 45 CAL stamped on that barrel.

smokepole7 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 11, 2011, 04:34:54 PM »

I may have erred when I said that Turner Kirkland (Dixie Gun Works) sold those blanks in 42" lengths. I believe they were indeed 48". I remember buying one and making a rifle and a pistol out of it. R Southgate told me that he paid for the dies to extrude the tubing as octagon and that Turner took advantage of the opportunity to have the blanks made. If Dixie bought the steel as 20 foot lengths as Southgate did, they could get five barrels from each length. Pa Keeler probably bought his blanks from Dixie. Steel was really cheap in those days. We just did not know how cheap it was! I think the blanks from Dixie were about $10. I don't have a catalog old enough to check.

JCKelly · « **Reply #20 on:** April 12, 2011, 10:08:13 PM »

Have a 1969 Dixie catalog, p120 shows 48" long smoothbore octagonal blanks, about 9 different sizes, calibers.
Finally got my new toy, #507 percussion. Here is the inside of the lock:

That light tan grease looks familiar to me from decades ago, reckon it's just as Southgate put it together. Complete with little machining chip. Sorry guys, I just gotta clean it out, remove the chip & put in some Breakfree. Half-cock is not at all a safety. Someone coated the whole rifle with a dark varnish, makes some of the brass look like copper in a photo.

This rifle is .41 caliber. I now must clean off my bench, find a mould & run out some balls.
By the way, Track of the Wolf Archives has nine Southgate rifles & four of his pistols, with their usual complete photography. Looks to me like his butt-stock style changed a bit, mid-50's.

smokepole7 · « **Reply #21 on:** April 17, 2011, 04:18:01 AM »

At least in the time I worked with him, R. Southgate only bought his steel in the 7/8" diameter. The blanks for #904, #906, #944 and #998 I had to buy from Dixie and process in his shop. The barrel for #979 came from his purchased stock, I think but am not completely sure. It was 7/8" in diameter and originally a .45. I rebored it to .50 in the summer of 1977 when Slim was coming in to the shop. He was making a movie in Franklin and had a little time on his hands... I think the movie was WW and Dixie Dance Kings, starring Burt Reynolds. After being bored out to .50, it was the best shooting rifle I have ever touched. Many records still stand which I shot with that rifle. I retired it in 1982 after winning the Mid-South Championship with it two years in a row. It is in my safe in its unfinished form and will remain there until I pass to the shooting range in the great beyond.

Ben Gorey · « **Reply #22 on:** April 17, 2011, 04:24:30 AM »

I have six southgates. Three rifles with engraved barrel signatures, one rifle with stamped signature (#831, 1970) . There are two variations of the S in the signatures. Two pistols. One with engraved barrel signature and the other is signed R+S (No. 71). The Gunsamerica rifle is undoubtedly by Southgate and the barrel signature looks good to me.

Ben Gorey

hjets · « **Reply #23 on:** May 12, 2011, 06:08:07 PM »

There was a long article about Royland Southgate in an issue of Gun Digest. I'll have to go through the issues I have and I'll post it here if I can find it. If memory serves, it was in the early '80's.
I own #772, a .36 cal Flintlock, new and unfired.
I have been tempted to fire it every now and then but I have no idea what load to use in it.

edrock · « **Reply #24 on:** May 23, 2013, 07:04:57 PM »

I have two R. Southgate rifles, no. 529 and 608, what is a typical value for these? One is flintlock the other is percussion.

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Author Topic: Royland Southgate (Read 30437 times)

smokepole7

smokepole7

smokepole7

smokepole7

Ben Gorey

hjets

edrock