Looser loads and accuracy........

[Skychief]

Conventional wisdom says to achieve fine accuracy, a tight load seated with a mallet is needed.

I want to know if any of you have a rifle that shoots prb's very accurately with looser loads.   I am not talking about thumb and forefinger only needed to seat a load, but, not much more pressure than that.

So, please share what load and rifle you may have that you have found will shoot 1" or better at 50 yards with a "looser" load.

Thanks for your replies, Skychief.

[Skychief]

I should have included that I have a 45 caliber halfstock with a Green Mounatin barrel that shoots 1" at 50yards with a .445 cast ball and spit-lubed muslin patch cut at the muzzle.   I had these results again this weekend with the rifle and so thought I would start this thread.   This load in this rifle seats super easy and the patches could be reused in need be.

Thanks again, Skychief.

[Daryl]

All of my rifles load and shoot as you note, Skychief, including the .32 and my 2, .58's, a double rifle and musketoon.  That is, they shoot 1" or better at 50 yards off a frong rest bag.  I don't use a rear bag with the ML's.

I don't need a mallet for any of them. I see the chunk and BR shooters using mallets - never had to use one.

The .40 I shot last Sunday, uses a .397"X .398" pure lead ball and .022" railroad mattress thicking patch. Actually, the patch measures (Taylor ws present) .019" with mic, .021" with one set of calipers and .025" with the other that was handy - so I called it .022". Stuff feels as heavy as 12oz denim, but is as soft as can be.  Once started, which is easy - can be pressed into the bore with the stud on the starter- yet goes down with 2 fingers on the rod.  That rifle does 1/2" for 5 shots at 50 yards.  Few weeks ago, I used it with the .400" X .400" balls and it loaded virtually identically, with .0215" plain mattress ticking.  Water/alcohol/neetsfoot oil lube. Oh yeah - the bore of this rifle is .398" and has a shallow angled, slightly less than 3/16" long cone at the muzzle.

Taylor's .40 and .50 that he uses on the trail, load just as easily with similar combinations.

The recovered patches are reusable, over and over- if desired - & no brown scorch marks from minor blowby in the grooves.   With some loads and smaller balls, ie: .005" to .010" smaller than the bore, brown scorch marks can show in the material from minor blowby in the grooves, yet the loads shoot just as cleanly, even though they are a bit looser. Loading seems the same to me. I find a load that shows no brown or tannish scorch marks, usually shoots more accurately.

Isn't muslin a soft, rather open weave,thick fiber cloth?  I had a .50 cal Bauska barrel back in the late 70's that shot some of that type of material amazingly well, but I had difficulty finding more of it.  It would make a cloverleaf at 50 yards with the first 3 shots, then make the cloverleaf merely a round hole with the next two shots.  My current .40 Goodioen and .45GM barrels do this with the patches noted above.

[northmn]

I never used a mallet.  Some use them that do not need to to prevent fatique on harder starting loads.  There is a theory that  a load that is too hard to seat will deform the ball too much and lose accuracy.  For the real hair splitting accuracy a false muzzle is better where the tight loads can get started in that manner.  I am talking about bench shooters and some of the other rest type shooter with heavy rifles.


DP

[rich pierce]

I think pure lead makes a big difference in loading.  If it's the least bit hard with some alloy, it is tough to form to the rifling.

[Canute Rex]

I used to use a .490 in my 50 Colerain barrel with a .025 patch. It worked ok.  Originally, the guy who sold it to me told me to shoot it with .490 ball and .015 patch and it shot knuckle-balls. I had tried to use a .495 ball but starting it was a bear. Then I finally decided to take the advice I picked up on this forum and carefully crowned the muzzle. It had been no more than a 45 degree chamfer, but now it is a small polished radius.

Now a .495 ball goes down without much starter effort, right out of a loading block. I'm still using a .025 patch. A Coleraine has .016 grooves, so it's .532 groove to groove with a .545 ball-and-patch diameter. The patches have a circle of grime but are theoretically reusable. It's actually easier to load than my original misguided .490/.015 combo because the crud doesn't build up.

Funny thing is, I don't find any rifling marks on a spent ball. I was just shooting out back and because of my setup a couple of balls skipped on the snow and came to rest on the surface. I picked them up and found crosshatching from the cloth, but no perceptible rifling marks. They were Hornady swaged balls, so I assume they were soft lead.

[Daryl]

Glad it worked for you, Canute - the crown does not get the attention it should.  It is vitally important to an easy loading, snug combination.

[Ron Brimer]

I know old time Friendship shooters who use a 498 ball with 20ths spit patch. they will argue with you till the cows come home, I have been shooting for 41 years , both ways. without a mallet is the best way for you to enjoy the sport. You may not shoot all 10xs but the 10s you shoot are a lot more fun.
  Ill bet Boone dident have a mallet,  and I wonder about a short starter

[Leatherbelly]

 Wow, a mallet? Somethin ain't right. I shoot a .490 or .495 with .021"-.023"  thick patches, a sloppy wet lube( spit or a www fluid concoction). I use a short starter. My barrel is a Rice Gunmakers barrel with .012 deep rectangular grooves. It ain't no two finger load but firm enough and easy enough to get down. Patches are great, re-usable, and no scorching.Me thinks your lube is the problem.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Good bore, smooth crown, dead soft lead, and sloppy wet patch - a joy to shoot.  I told a friend to use neats foot oil soaked patches in the winter.  On Sunday, he was having loading difficulty.  He gave me a patch, and it had olive oil in it but it was rung out nearly dry.  He was afraid the oil might leak out of his tin and stain his bag.  Olive oil isn't very good over the long run, and the patch should be glistening wet, no matter what patch you use.

[Dphariss]

Wow, a mallet? Somethin ain't right. I shoot a .490 or .495 with .021"-.023"  thick patches, a sloppy wet lube( spit or a www fluid concoction). I use a short starter. My barrel is a Rice Gunmakers barrel with .012 deep rectangular grooves. It ain't no two finger load but firm enough and easy enough to get down. Patches are great, re-usable, and no scorching.Me thinks your lube is the problem.

Lube can make a lot of difference in how tight the fit can be and start easily.
I have been shooting .495s and .018 ticking (compresses to .013") lube with water soluble oil that is allowed to dry leaving a slightly greasy feeling patch.
The GM 50s seem to shoot best with this. Beef tallow shoots well with the same patch for hunting loads. Tallow allows follow up shots without wiping if the barrel is blown through.
WS oil requires wiping and a dry patch over the powder for accuracy and to prevent blowing the patch. It also requires a starter.
The high water content will prevent much scorching. Oiled or greased patches always show some brown in the middle from the heat.
Unless a water based lube is used wiping always produces better accuracy and might even with water in some cases.
Really slick lubes often do not shoot all that well but this may depend on land groove ratios and twist.
Wider lands will produce more friction and increased friction can result in smaller velocity variations.
Dan

[hanshi]

All my rifles load with a short starter and seat quite easily; yet they will put 5 shots on a half dollar (remember those?) at 50 yards.  This, of course, is when I've pulled myself together and got my eyes working right.  I won't use a load I can't seat with a wood ramrod in the woods and field.

[frenchman]

Great subject for me, i just finish my .45 and i want to use it's loading rod and it's tapered 5/16 to 3/8 so that makes me little nervous . I've ordered a .440 mould from Lee. I used to always use a bigger rod for loading. So to start is .440 + .10 a good start as any for easy loading for my deer hunting and any shooting, Don't want to lose to much pressure. Than had thicker for tighter group and heavier rod for some serious grouping

[Daryl]

In my opinion, a .010" patch is useless for anything but perhaps a .010" OVERSIZE ball.  .010" patch is also poor for cleaning.  frenchman- do yourself  favour and get some real patches to start. Fine to start with a ball that is .010" smaller than the bore, but use a descent patch. 

O'course, one guy I met was happy hitting the paper at 25 yards 3 out of 5 shots and he was also wiping each shot. Seems he didn't file enough off the sand filled .30/30 case's rims he was shooting.

[Skychief]

Isn't muslin a soft, rather open weave,thick fiber cloth?  I had a .50 cal Bauska barrel back in the late 70's that shot some of that type of material amazingly well, but I had difficulty finding more of it.  It would make a cloverleaf at 50 yards with the first 3 shots, then make the cloverleaf merely a round hole with the next two shots.  My current .40 Goodioen and .45GM barrels do this with the patches noted above.

Daryl, the cloth I am referring to was purchased at China-Mart, I am afraid.  If I recall correctly, it is called "Super Muslin".   It doesn't strike me as particularly soft, nor open weaved nor thick.

I have only found it in a non-striped, non-patterned cream color.   It is actually a tighter woven fabric the ticking.   It measures .012-.013" with my calipers.   I have found these calipers measurements to agree with precuts purchased from "Ox-Yoke" for what it is worth.   Also, this fabric is harder to compress than pillow ticking is within the caliper's jaws.

Thanks for your replies here Daryl, Skychief.

[bgf]

I've played around with the "Super Muslin" also.  It works well in my pistol (as well as anything does for me shooting a pistol) and it is an easier to load alternative with .490 balls on woodswalks and backyard shoots with the neighbors in my .50 cal. rifle without giving up too much accuracy over the normal load (.495/0.018).  Strangely, it was marked "ticking" at the register, even though the bolt had "Super Muslin" printed on it.  Wally world also has cotton "Super Flannel", which I think is some of the best material for cleaning patches ever. I don't think it would make good patching, although it came out looking great when I fired my stuck ramrod into the pasture .

[frenchman]

Daryl what would you recommend to start with .15 , .20 patch and what is the advantage of going .445 instead of.440 everything commercially seems to be .440 for .45 . So would it be a good thing to buy a mold .445  Than use .440 for hunting with a thick patch for easy loading than .445 for target . I am getting a bit confuse .
thanks

[Ron Brimer]

Dan, is the closest  to the way I have been shooting all these years a good wet lube period. I still shoot with Jimmy Allen, who won a lot of off hand and chunk gun events in the 70s 80s I dident think a human could produce that much spit, Robert Watts was another spit shooter. They used Watts made mallets ,the head was filled with RBs to add weight. I dont know if they still do that at Friendship any more. Watts passed away a few years ago and Jimmys health is keeping him to one shoot a month. Oh yeah the mallet doubled as a short starter. 
             Ron B

[northmn]

Patch thickness will depend somewhat on depth of rifling also.  I used to use thinner patches with the old Numrich barrels taht I think were about .008 or so.  For them a 010 patch worked OK.  But I also used a ball larger than they recommended like a 445 over a 440.  Until shot in they tended to load a little tight but on a couple I actually went up in patch thickness a little after shooting them a bit.  The older Douglas at 010 were betterwith the standard 015.  Some of the barrels today like the Colerain at 016 should use a 020 minimum with that depth.  Think about it a bit as the thcker patches will do th esealing better in a deep grooved barrel.  I used to use muslin because it was actually tighter weaved than denim, but it also tened to be thinner.  Drill and duck are a little thicker and tighter weaved than blue jeans. 

DP

[Daryl]

Daryl what would you recommend to start with .15 , .20 patch and what is the advantage of going .445 instead of.440 everything commercially seems to be .440 for .45 . So would it be a good thing to buy a mold .445  Than use .440 for hunting with a thick patch for easy loading than .445 for target . I am getting a bit confuse .
thanks

pm sent

[Ron Brimer]

The STANDARD patch material at Friendship was Indianhead Linen. it ran about 15ths . was good stuff. A good grade Irish linen is very costly. You can buy it by the yard from Jas Townsand and son They make historic  18th C clothing. From the 80s back  Indianhead was the way to go, Cotton? boy you could be strung up for using the stuff. Remember that Douglas bbls was the most used. along with Parris, Bill Large, and other custom makers.  You were putting out a lot of $$ for a Douglas, I think they were about 45$ for a premium, and if you had a Parris or Large..  I may be wrong ,Oxyoke was ,or is using some linen.  
                                  Ron B

[heinz]

Interesting Ron B.  When I shot at Friendship I would have said the standard patching was featherproof pillow ticking.  Featherproof ticking is still my favorite but it is hard to find.

[Ron Brimer]

I  recall pillow ticking coming in the late 70s ,80s , I started using it also,  I started shooting with Robert Watts, he sold Indianhead in his shop, until he could not get it . Thats when we started with pillow ticking.  Oxyoke started selling it in strips precuts. I was told Pillow ticking is thin, Bed tic is thick , the real stuff.   Back to the lube, use lots of it .                        
                                                 Ron B

[frenchman]

Got the message Daryl thanks

[northmn]

I think the ball/patch combination to be one of the more critical aspects of accuracy if you want to be able to shoot cock roaches at 100 yards or are a bench, Xstick or chunk shooter.  Most field shooters want a loose load for easy loading in the field, but I have found that for larger game I am lucky to get one shot and a fast reload in a ML is a oxymoron.  For squirrels I like to use a very accurate load and carry a short starter and even cleaning supplies.  The combination needs to be tight but not mallet tight.  The folks that do the rest type shooting also have rifles that will wring out the very best loads.  A off hand 45 in 13/16 or 7/8 configuration or a light swamped barrel do not need to have the same loading techniques as 14 pound or heavier rest gun.  Tight patching with a good slippery lube for the range is great, but pounding a ball down with a mallet is unneccesary. At the shoots I used to attend we never really had anyone into X-sticks, but I used to be able to get groups where you had to double check to see if I fired all 5 shots at 50 yards, and with the offhand rifle (some really complained about using different rifles for different events, mostly the ones that spent all their money on tepees, buckskins, and other paraphernalia to be PC and owned one rifle, a TC Hawken).  There was also the issue of getting 5 shots off in the time alloted as we alowed a 20 minute relay. 

DP