Looser loads and accuracy........

[Daryl]

A really Serious big game rifle also uses paper ctgs., as Dan will attest.  Mine, a caplock, was capable of being re-loaded, aimed and fired in 8 seconds. Yes- 8 seconds after the recoil of the first and a well aimed second shot is fired.  The English gun design allows this.  A longrifle or Hawken design is considerably slower to align.

A fast second shot was important (I thought) with my first moose with this rifle.  Just at dusk, my first moose with the .69 appeared down the draw.  The temperature -35 & the shot taken at about 100 yards, except the first ball, a pure lead, cloth patched one, travelled through 50 yards of willow tips before striking the moose boomfttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttwhock! The moose's butt hit the ground and he shook his head back and forth as I recoved from recoil and started loading anew.

 Just as he gained his feet, and turned to depart, the second shot ripped out though from the opposite side of initial impact, hitting fewer willows fttttwhock.  He hit the ground again and stayed - what a wonderous feeling, with a new rifle to see such smashing power. The sound at impact was amazing.

 The first ball, hit 12" left of the aiming point, probably due to hitting all that wood on the way to the moose & only had enough jam to smash the on-side leg bone- almost 4" in diameter, then stop against the ribs without penetraing into the cavity or hitting anything vital. That was enough to stop him momentarily only. How far could he go after that is anyone's guess. Hit hard but hardly fatal that day, I could have lost him, but a quick second shot anchored him before he could fully recover that first 484gr. smack. This is why I like large bores - they have smashing power. The second ball of WW metal, smashed 2 ribs on impact, bored a 4" diameter cookie cutter-type hole through both lungs and smashed through the blade low where it's thickest, to stop against the hide on the offside.  I was impressed.  The moose was too.

So - yes - even with a muzzlelaoder, I believe in a 'relatively quick' second shot.  A lot can happen in 8 seconds - with a lesser rifle, he'd have been lost or at least, a follow up the next day would have found him in a bed, still alive, probably.

[northmn]

Typical that someone finds an exception, but generally I have found taht about the time the ramrod drives the ball home on anything that I wanted a faster load for the critter is gone or takes off.  I used to carry the loading blocks and everything but never tried the paper cartridges.  One time I cleaned the gun after shooting before reloading while waiting to check to see if I hit.

DP 

[Scout]

I now use a .389 lead ball swage up, 42 grains of 3F Goex and a .018 Eastern Maine pillow ticking patch cut off at the muzzle with a 50% beeswax/ 50% lanolin patch lube with good results.  Kind of loose compared to the .395 ball I used before. I never benched it yet but offhand its better at 30 yards than the tighter one.

[frenchman]

well received my new mold today and i did a bunch tonight brought back some good memories and forgot how pleasant it was. I will be ordering a .445 mold  next week . When the weather gets a bit better i will be ready. Found some .020 pillow ticking this should be a good start and also i will be cleaning it's crown.

[Roger Fisher]

I do recall one ol boy that thought loose combo was the way to go - til we had to stomp out the fire his burning patch started in the brush.

I wonder if he is reading this and can recall it

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

We had the same issue Roger, in Ft Mc Murray a couple years ago.  Someone on the line was shooting thin patches and started a fire.  It took all of the morning and a lot of shooters sweating to the point of exhaustion to put it out.  In the end, the Forestry Service arrived with foam and doused down the whole bush.  It shut down the trail walks, and from then for the next five days, all the shooting was on the gravel range.  All because someone was using too thin a patch.

[David R. Pennington]

I've got a .50 GM barrel that will regularly give me two and a half inch groups at 100 yds. when my old eyes will. I shoot .490 out of a Lee mold with .017 ticking with spit patch and 75 gr. 3F. I tried to up the charge a little to raise my point of impact and tried 80 grains. My groups spread out to 6 inches. I went back to 75 gr. and pulled my group back to 2 and 1/2 inches! I could'nt believe 5 grains would make that much difference. I don't use a short starter just thumb the ball in and start it with the wide end of the wood ramrod. Every shot loads slick as a whistle all day if I wipe between shots.

[Ron Brimer]

I think we all agree ,That a thumb start load is the way to go. It all boils down to the POWDER charge. to me all that mallet stuff is for the bench, off hand  target shooters. May Robert Watts and Jimmy Allen forgive me . I don't want To carry a Hammer, and I don't have enough spit.
      Ron B

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Well, we certainly don''t all agree.  I guess the best I can do is to do what I do and don't worry about trying to make other's shooting better and more enjoyable.  Thumb start a ball...my goodness!!

[smylee grouch]

Thumb start sounds kinda loose, what do the recovered patches look like?

[Roger Fisher]

Thumb start ::)that would be still another thing I have thats wearing out

[Ron Brimer]

Evidently YOUR Definition of THUMB START is differnt than mine, Ive only been shooting and building for 40 years ,I  do use a short starter after the ball is seated on the crown.  I hope that clears that up. RON B

[David R. Pennington]

Thumb starting to me means just enough pressure to hold the ball in position on the patch in the crown of the bore. From there I can take the ramrod or the butt of a patch knife and start it in the bore with steady firm pressure. Trim off the patch and then send it on home with the ramrod.
I'm a little afraid of short starters and recently have decided to give up using one for the simple fact that there is the possibility of me short starting a ball and then becoming distracted and forgetting to ram it home before shooting. There was a fairly recent article  in Muzzle Blasts of an experienced shooter doing this and ruined his rifle. Luckily no one was hurt, but he found his front sight sticking in the rafters of the range shed.

[leadslinger62]

   I bulged a Great Plains Rifle barrel  by short starting a load. I just don`t have the umph to load it without using a short starter.  If I ever  get the time I wouold like to try a looser loading patch and ball combo....

[LynnC]

Just my observations.......

If a load requires a short starter it's not a thumb start.

If its a thumb start, it's just pushed home with the RR

[bgf]

Who wants to use a short starter if there is no need?  If I could/can work up a load with accuracy like David's at 100 yards (actually have the same barrel on a work in progress), I will be glad to leave the short starter at home...forever .

[frenchman]

today i looked at the crown of my .45 and yes it was wrought i even had to take very small files to take away some of the big shards. Than i will be doing the crowning .
Making a small tool for it than it is a go.

[Leatherbelly]

  If you want to shoot loose loads and wash your bore out all the time, fly at 'er! I'd just as soon use my non pc short starter,with my tight combination and shoot accurately all day long,no bore washing. Not to mention, burning the bush down at the range with a loose fitting patch.
 BTW, I get to the range in my NON PC CORRECT Dodge pickup! How do you get there? Ford,Toyota,Yugo?

[Scout]

  If you want to shoot loose loads and wash your bore out all the time, fly at 'er! I'd just as soon use my non pc short starter,with my tight combination and shoot accurately all day long,no bore washing. Not to mention, burning the bush down at the range with a loose fitting patch.
 BTW, I get to the range in my NON PC CORRECT Dodge pickup! How do you get there? Ford,Toyota,Yugo?

To each his own. I thought FORD was the only non PC ride due to there not being bailed out by the guvment. I still love my Ford van regardless of any PC labels.

By the way my loose loads and patches are Smokey the Bear safe here in N. Florida !

[frenchman]

well i did my tool for crowning today a saw a picture of one of the post .I made a .45 adapter ,now just need to make an adapter for different caliber. It made a big difference

[Roger Fisher]

Thumb starting to me means just enough pressure to hold the ball in position on the patch in the crown of the bore. From there I can take the ramrod or the butt of a patch knife and start it in the bore with steady firm pressure. Trim off the patch and then send it on home with the ramrod.
I'm a little afraid of short starters and recently have decided to give up using one for the simple fact that there is the possibility of me short starting a ball and then becoming distracted and forgetting to ram it home before shooting. There was a fairly recent article  in Muzzle Blasts of an experienced shooter doing this and ruined his rifle. Luckily no one was hurt, but he found his front sight sticking in the rafters of the range shed.

As I recall that New Englander had gone too deep with his sight notch and said notch lined up with the forward lug notch.  And to really make things hairy he did not notice that the short starter shaft lined up the patched ball at exactly (or v nearly) that same position in the bore.  All those things caused said incident not only the fact that he was using a short starter.  He may come in here and straighten me out on the facts as I know them.

[Ron Brimer]

When I shot in matches,  I used mallet , tight patches, LOTS of lube, but for plinking, woods walks, and just fun, I use the looser patch. So use your own
judgement ,and by all means enjoy yourself.  NUFF SAID.
        Ron B

[greybeard]

Very earley in my M L experience I bought a H & A .58 underhammer. Took some ptoperly greased patches to shoot and could hardly stay on the paper at 25 yds. I was devistated to say the least. I had some dry patching with me so tried spit . Group shrunk to 1 1/2 at 25 yds. Spit was the only thing that barrel would shoot. Bob

[David R. Pennington]

Greybeard, I went through the same thing with greased patches. One day they might give me good groups and the next they're all over. Just couldn't get consistent with them. Shoot dry or spit now and get a lot better groups more of the time.

[bob in the woods]

I have followed this with interest ,since my experience,the only guns I have which have shot better with looser loads are my smoothbores, and then with lubed paper cartridges, not patched balls.