Ferguson Build questions

[smart dog]

Hi 4str,
I did the same as Dave Crisalli.  I installed a white lightning vent liner.  The Ferguson barrel has thick steel at the breech so the vent hole is long.  I remember reading some posts on an internet site a few years ago in which owners of Narragansett Ferguson's complained that ignition was slow.  There are many possible reasons for that but a long deep vent hole could be one.  That also may be why your instructions call for a relatively large hole.  It is also possible that the originals were coned from the inside, although I never read any mention of it.  Anyway, Dave and I installed liners and out guns are a joy to shoot.

dave

[4ster]

Thanks for the help guys!  I just put an order in to Track of the Wolf for a vent liner, new tap and chamfer bit. 

To avoid engaging with and filing a groove in the fast thread breach plug the vent hole will have a slight forward angle.  I assume once the vent liner is installed the portion of the liner that is not flat with the barrel will be filed flush, correct?

Steve

[smart dog]

Hi 4ster,
Yes.  Leave some extra metal on the liner above the surface of the barrel so you can file it flush on a slight angle.  The angle should be very small. 

dave

[4ster]

Did anyone else have problems with the sear arm not being long enough?   

The Ferguson breach is wider than a normal muzzle loader because of the breach screw, and when I cut the mortise for the trigger I discovered that the sear doesn't quite reach half way into the mortise.  I can only inlet the lock a little bit more before the main spring starts to contact the barrel - and it isn't enough. 

The only solution I can think of is to weld or silver solder an extension on the tip of the sear.  Is that going to cause a problem?

Steve

[Swampwalker]

Wish TRS would come up with a smaller 'sport' Ferguson action, say in .54 cal.  It would allow a thinner profile through the breech section.

[Gunnermike]

Wish TRS would come up with a smaller 'sport' Ferguson action, say in .54 cal.  It would allow a thinner profile through the breech section.

You would probably be a very old man before that happened.  However, with a small machine shop, a welding torching, a large amount of will power and enough bourbon you could replicate this:






But then you have to be a little insane too.  Mike

[smart dog]

Hi 4str,
I had exactly the same problem and I ended up making a new sear with a longer bar.  It is not hard to do.  I think there might be shrinkage during molding that causes the cast part to be a little smaller than the original.  The lock and breech mechanism determine the width of the lock section so it is not a case of not inletting the lock or locating the trigger plate properly.  I don't remember if the trigger slot is already cut in the trigger plate.  If it isn't, cut the slot off center toward the lock so the trigger engages the sear closer to the plate.  I made a new sear because the sear that came with the parts set was a tiny bit too narrow and the fit between the lock plate and the bridle had a little slop.  That caused the trigger pull to be spongy because the trigger hit the sear near the tip of the sear bar which gave it a lot of leverage to magnify the loose fit of the sear on the lockplate.  To solve the problem, I made a new bigger sear and I lap fitted it between the plate and the bridle.  The fit was very precise, which eliminated the sponginess.  It also had a longer bar so that the trigger no longer hit it at the tip.  The trigger pull is crisp and light.

dave

[4ster]

Gunnermike, that is one nice gun.  Its a good thing I don't own it, I would want to shoot it!

Dave, thanks for confirming I am not crazy.

 The trigger plate is offset, the slot was in the plate.  I wish TRS would provide at least a rudimentary set of instructions because I *may* have tried to work the slot closer to the centerline of the lock plate when I was doing the finish work to the part. It needed to be widened to fit the trigger and I didn't understand that the offset trigger slot was to compensate for the width of the stock behind the breach.  Oh well.  The slot is still more on the lock side of the trigger plate and will have to do.

I will check for play in the sear and decide what to do from there.  If the rest of the sear is OK I think I will scarf an extension and silver solder it.  Or I may just weld it with my wire feed.  Not historically correct, but know one will know, right? ;-)

[4ster]

I had a little problem getting the vent hole liner installed and am fishing for tips.

I drilled the vent at a slight angle to get the vent slightly forward of the vertical breach screw.  The angle is so slight that only about half of the vent is forward of the milled face in the breach screw, which is fine because the hole was drilled 7/32 for a 1/4X32 vent liner.  There is lots of space for powder to get down to the touch hole.

The trouble I am having is the counter sink I purchased with the vent liner is not creating an evenly chamfered edge around the hole because of the angle of the vent.  The vent liner and counter sink seem to be designed so that the bevel on the liner gets deformed into the mild chamfer of the counter sink.  The counter sink is labeled "90 degree countersink 1/4, for White Lightnin' touch hole liners".  Since I drilled the vent hole at an angle I think that the counter sink can't properly create the correct shape.  Track of the Wolf does not seem to offer a counter sink other than the 90 degree version.  Is there another countersink for angled vents?

 stopped work on the vent hole today before I got the chamfer too deep, figuring I need to step back and think about the problem.

On a completely different subject I am close to the point of applying a finish to the stock.  I figure since this is a military weapon the historical finish would be a simple rubbed in oil.  A friend who has done a couple of modern rifle stocks recommended boiled linseed oil.  Looking at the various Ferguson threads I haven't been able to tease out specifics of how other builders have finished their stocks. I read different opinions of the quality of boiled linseed oil at my local hardware store.  Some have said that is the worst thing to put on the stock, others that is is just fine.  

Any other recommendations for finishing?  It is my intension that this rifle will be a shooter, and while I am trying to do the best build I can this is my first gun and I have had to do a lot of learning (or put another way, it is not quite up to the great examples displayed in this thread).  I am aiming at a nearly historically correct finish that is practical to maintain as a shooter.

Steve




 

[Swampwalker]

Steve, based on my limited experience observing English sporting rifles, an oil-base varnish would be a better choice.   Hopefully a English military rifle expert can chime in.  I'm no fan of boiled linseed oil finishes.

[4ster]

I was thinking cold pressed linseed oil and gum turpentine would be close to historically correct and a tuff finish as well.

[4ster]

Just an update, the rifle is getting close to final assembly and its first firing.

For future builders looking at this thread I want to post a warning about angling a WL vent liner.  They are intended to be installed 90 degrees to the barrel, be sure you know what you are up to if you angle the vent liner.  If I was doing it again I would install the vent at 90.  The larger hole made for the liner might open to the power chamber without an angle.  If not, a much smaller groove would have to be cut in the breech screw.  I still think a vent liner is a good idea on a Ferguson for reasons stated earlier in this thread.

Because I drilled the vent hole at an angle, the countersink "walked" and would not center over the hole.  You don't counter sink the WL liner very much so there is not a lot of room for a mistake.   I decided my drill press is not tight enough to fix my mistake.  The barrel is now with a friend who owns a machine shop.

While the barrel is in the shop I have mostly finished work on the other parts.  Not having the barrel is forcing me to take my time with the stock finish.  Otherwise I would be tempted to put it all together and take it out back of the wood shed.  I will post a few pictures when it is all together.

Steve

[Southron]

King's Mountain National Military Park is on the North Carolina/South Carolina border and just a few miles off of the Interstate.

It is, in effect, a National Park dedicated to the Ferguson Rifle and American Long Rifles. If you have not yet been by that park and have the chance to do so, by all means, visit that park.

They have several original rifles on display and there is even a "romantic twist" involved-when archaeologists uncovered Major Ferguson's grave, they found a woman buried with him. She was probably his red headed girlfriend who literally "stood by her man" until the last.

By the way, King's Mountain was a pivotal battle in the American Revolution and there was no question about the role that American long rifles played in the victory.

[bryanbrown]

Actually there are more than 2 even if you limit it to Ferguson Ordnance Rifles.  There is one in the Morristown NJ NPS site, one at the Minneapolis museum, two at West Point, one at the Smithsonian, and 3 that I am aware of at the Tower of London Collection now in Leeds.  The one at Kings Mountain NMP is a civilian hunting model

[sam steele]

Hello Gents,

A gunmaker friend of mine (who built me a fine flint bench-rest rifle) suggests the authentic way of finishing - put some boiled linseed oil on the palm of your hand, and rub it into the wood. The heat from the friction removes the need to wipe any excess away. Do that every six months or so, and you're fine.

Cheers,

Bill

[bryanbrown]

“Every Insult and Indignity”: The Life, Genius & Legacy of Patrick Ferguson
The book is available for sale now. This is the full version of the book with over 100 color plates that will be available online and at our lectures/demos.

http://www.everyinsultandindignity.com/sales.html

The first book signing/sale will be at Kings Mountain NMP Oct 8 & 9 2011

[bryanbrown]

We will be doing a book signing, demonstrations and lectures at Brandywine Battlefield Historic Site Chadds Ford PA March 11 for Charter Days. Looking forward to seeing you all there!! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Every-Insult-and-Indignity-The-Life-Genius-Legacy-of-Patrick-Ferguson/283726168172

[xtriggerman]

I thought I would revive this post since it was so helpful in the Ferguson build that I just completed. What gets me is the photo here showing how far forward the touch hole is on this rifle yet the Rifle Shop semi stock is cut to place the touch hole off the pan and into the forward part of the breech screw as some other original Ferguson rifle pics. I put a 1/4 x 28 liner in my build but had to mill an angled guide cut toward the chamber. With the touch hole so far from the charge, can anyone suggest what the touch hole diameter should be?
 

[bryanbrown]

Very nice, excellent work. How does she shoot?

[JCKelly]

For those who like linseed oil finishes, might I suggest that you stay away from hardware stores and anything called "boiled linseed oil".

Go to an artist's supply. There you can get cold pressed oil, as 4ster suggests, or "stand oil", This is cold pressed oil thickened by heat. One would dilute it with actual gum turpentine -again bought from your artist supply, Not hardware.

Artist's stuff is pricier than hardware, but no more so than commercial gun stock finishes. 

[Bill Paton]

Xtriggerman,

I don’t have a direct answer to your touch hole size question, but have some related observations. In my den now are two contemporary Ferguson ordnance rifles, one by Narragansett using Rifle Shoppe parts based on castings from the Milwaukee (Nunnemacher Collection) Fergusson ordnance rifle, and the other by Ernie Cowan using all parts of his manufacture, directly from measurements and observations he made from the Morristown Ferguson ordnance rifle that he disassembled.

The touch hole on the Narragansett rifle admits a number drill bit measuring .068”, and no larger. That vent is located about 1/4” BEHIND the front of the  screw plug, and the plug has been severely notched to allow the vent to communicate with the chamber. The vent actually enters the barrel within the female threads for the screw plug, and will be subject to having fouling ground into the touch hole from the dirty threads.

That seems to be the same problem you are solving with your angled vent liner. (Smartdog overcame this problem by stocking his Rifle Shoppe barreled action from his own plank of walnut and placing his self-made lock where he, and Patrick Ferguson, wanted it!)

Cowan’s touch hole admits a drill bit of .079” and enters the chamber directly, just like the photo of the Milwaukee barrel shown on page 57 on Bailey’s book “British Military Flintlock Rifles”. This arrangement seems to mirror Ferguson’s original intent, and rightly so.

I have photos of both vents inside the chamber, and both plugs. If anybody needs to see them, I can make my first attempts at posting photos. Cable, of this site, owns the Narragansett rifle in my den, and said he would help with the posting of photos if and when needed.

These are interesting issues with a fascinating rifle promoted by a brilliant British officer who made this technology and rifle a part of American history. The British hoped that the Pattern ’76 rifle (1000 made) and the Ferguson (100 made) would counter and neutralize the American long rifle, which was giving such heartburn to British Officers coming to America to face American accuracy and ungentlemanly conduct. If Patrick Ferguson, gentleman that he was, had not passed up his shot at General Washington at Brandywine when he had him in his Ferguson rifle sights, we might all be speaking BRITISH now, God forbid!

(Moderators, please allow this thread to persist, since the development and implementation of the Ferguson rifle is intimately tied to the ALR!  )

Bill Paton

[smart dog]

Great post Bill,
I love shooting my Ferguson, and ignition is very fast with the liner.  The disturbing thing about a Ferguson is the very thin wood left behind the lock. The screw plug receiver takes out so much wood.  It is not surprising that most military issued Ferguson's that survive today are all broken near the screw plug.

dave

[Daryl]

Great to see this thread renewed.  Here's the only picture I have of Taylor's Ferguson.

[xtriggerman]

Mr. Paton,
  Thanks for the detailed explanation. I never thought there would have been that much variation with such a critical touch hole positioning but there it is. You would think the Rifle Shoppe folks would have patterned after the Morristown rifle. I did over size the liner hole slightly to .073 and I just received word tonight that the owner fired about a dozen rounds today and had no firing issues what ever. He is very pleased with the build. As for the finish, the stock had a rather ugly brown color with a hint of yellow in the lighter open grain. I knew a stain had to be used. Many years ago Birchwood Casey had my favorite stain for these type of guns. It was their Colonial Red. Of course they discontinued it. I tried a variety of new stains but was unhappy with them until I found Rust-Oleum "Cognac" Wood stain at Walmart.
It cleaned out the majority of the brown and gave me the walnut red that you see. One coat coverage is applied heavy on and wipe it right off after all the whiskering is done. Then I hand rubbed a few coats of true oil to quickly seal the wood. Then I completed with a very light "washed" OOOO steel wool rub down and subsequent hand rubbed coats of "Natural" Danish oil with Japan Dryer additive.  Here are a few more pictures of the Rifle and Thanks for the comments.
 




Lining up the drill threw the barrel wedge holes

And here the stock is put in place for the perfect hole alignment drilling

[smart dog]

Hi Xtriggerman,
Nice job on that Ferguson.  I believe the TRS parts are cast from the 2nd ordnance issue Ferguson located in the Nunnemacher collection at the Milwaukee Public museum.  DeWitt Bailey describes that gun in his book on British military flintlock rifles.  Below are photos of one I built a few years ago.  My stock was a plank of English walnut with a tiny bit of figure and somewhat plain brown color.  I used a thin mix of scarlet and orange aniline water-based dyes to tint and heighten the color.  It worked well.  The stock was finished with an oil-varnish, which I believe was the kind of finish used on the originals.  My only complaint with the TRS barrel and action is that my powder chamber appears to be short compared with the patent drawings of the original design by Ferguson.  I cannot pack more than 55 gr of powder behind a beeswax lubed 0.648" ball or 60 gr behind a beeswax lubed 0.615" ball (the size Bryan Brown suggests).  My rifle is accurate with the larger ball at 50 yards but I want more powder behind it for 100 and 150 yards. I intend to have a machinist friend bore out the powder chamber to the correct historical depth.

dave