Author Topic: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/  (Read 23776 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2011, 01:45:00 AM »
Quote
Not sure about alignment, but how about a screw from the lockplate threading into the side of the standing breech?  That would avoid all of the patching issue with re-positioning the lock.
Tim if I were you I would look hard at this. I have a VA rifle (percussion) that is done this way. I had never seen it done before but Don Stith told me that it was done quite often with high grade English guns. The lock bolt is flat head with the standard 82 degree countersink. It can not be seen until you cock the hammer. There is no side plate on mine but you could always put one on.
Dennis
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2011, 01:52:54 AM »
That is how the "Ferguson" flint rifle is made.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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roundball

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2011, 02:18:38 AM »

 >:( Well I have a nice piece of very hard curly maple
 

Since I know nothing about building, I find the thread very interesting.
And I do have a generic question if I may...what is actually at stake here in terms of an 'investment'?

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2011, 02:24:24 AM »
It's amazing that we should be using the same hooked and standing breech at the same time, Tim.  But on my build (RCA 63), I used an old Siler percussion plate and made the lock around that.  The bolster is a little longer than on the Davis Late Ketland, so it worked out perfectly.  Even so, I filed away the extra part of the hook that extends behind the break-off.
It may be that that lock won't work easily with that build.  (...a profile drawing would have shown you that!)  I'd shave off the lock panel, add a new piece of wood, and re-inlet another lock that WILL work.  I did that on a very early rifle of mine that had a percussion lock which the owner wanted to change to flintlock.  Once re-finished, it was difficult to detect.  Anyway, here's my pics...

D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline cmac

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2011, 02:58:53 AM »
I would plug it with wood myself but another option might be to have a silver inlay at the front of the lock and just plug the sear hole and re-drill that, and inlet the back of lock as needed

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 03:24:05 AM »
Man, what a bummer. I've got nothing better to add than what has already been suggested so I'll just pass along my deepest sympathy.   :(  I've been in the pair of shoes you're occupying in one way or another more times than I care to remember. It will turn out OK. Its just a matter of weighing the various options and picking the one you are most comfortable with. Sorry I can't come up with some cure but I'm totally drawing a blank as to other possible fixes.

Offline Long John

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 04:18:01 AM »
Dr. Tim,

This what I would do.

Make sure the barrel is wrapped with Saran wrap to keep from gluing that inI would take all the wood chips, shavings and sawdust from the stick and mixit 70%30% with bondo.  This will make an oatmeal-like mix that will be carvable when cured because of the wood content.  It will be prudent to make a trial bach and let it cure to evaluate how carvable you want it but on the skull mounts I have done 70/30 mix is about right.  You can also make a wood-based filler with Elmers glue or Titebond glue. 

Carefully spoon the mix into the mortice, mashing it into all the nooks and crannies until it is about 1/8th inch below the finished surface of the lock flat.  Once the filler has cured, make a wood slab that is about 3/16ths inch thick that matches the grain as close as you can and shap it to fit the lock mortice.  Now let the slab into the mortice taking care to get a solid fit between the back of the slab and the top of the filler.  Glue in place. 

With this patch in place you can start over letting in your lock.  The wood/bondo filler will be carvable.  When done cut a nice incised line around the lock to hide the glue joint.

Good Luck,
jmc

greybeard

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2011, 05:01:49 AM »
Dr, Boone,;  If I am seing the pic right it looks to me that  the spot you have for the touch hole is almost dead on the seam where the nock typ breech plug shoulders against the back of the barrel .If I am seing this right the touchhole liner will be 1/2 in the barrel and 1/2 in the solid breech threads. To my way of thinking you will have to move the liner back 1/2 inch and put it into the solid part of the breech. Then drill into the face of the breech plug to a depth to meet the touchhole liner. Could be I'm Jest sting things though???Bob

Offline Cody Tetachuk

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 05:29:37 AM »
how about a screw from the lockplate threading into the side of the standing breech?

This was my first thought also but on seeing the picture, it appears like the lock bolster stops short of the standing breech. There may be other issues not apparent in the pics but a couple other options would be, rather than patch the lock mortice and reinlet, perhaps you could move the barrel ahead 1/2" and put a wood patch behind the standing breech and extend the tang. Much easier than a lock mortice patch and would be easier to hide I would think through judicious carving and/or blackening to simulate age. Another thought would be to make a steel block that would extend the standing breech, weld it to the front of the existing SB then drill and tap it and put a short lock bolt to bolt the lock to the SB. Another one could be added to the off side for appearances. From where I sit, there is too much wood on it to determine whether or not the lock tail is too low to the point of being a serious issue.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 05:30:35 AM by Cody Tetachuk »

Offline JTR

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 05:51:08 AM »
Tim,
As nice as the guns are that you build, you're not going to be happy with some sort of patch, unless it's absolutely perfect.
Chances of making the patch absolutely perfect rate right up there with winning the loto.
Unless you're in the mood to experminent, I think a new piece of wood is the answer.

Then save this piece of wood for another gun,,, with a larger lock!

John
John Robbins

Offline Dave B

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2011, 07:06:41 AM »
Tim,
I have seen several English pieces that have the screw passing through the lock plate into the standing breach just as several have already suggested. It is the way you should do it and save the project from greater problems. It looks like there is enough room to run a screw from the lock side into the side flat of the standing breach. Really this is as easy as drilling a hole and taping the treads and your done. Then proceed with the process to finish the rest of the gun
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2011, 09:28:47 AM »
and ot just on English pieces - J & S Hawken circa 1836

Two roads diverged in a wood, and I,
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

Offline jerrywh

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2011, 09:53:39 AM »
Dr. tim Boone.
  Don't do anything yet. Send me an email and I will tell you how to fix that thing easy.  
 jwh_guns@yahoo.com   I feel sorry for you.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 09:54:29 AM by jerrywh »
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

roundball

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2011, 04:34:10 PM »
Tim,
As nice as the guns are that you build, you're not going to be happy with some sort of patch, unless it's absolutely perfect.
Chances of making the patch absolutely perfect rate right up there with winning the loto.
Unless you're in the mood to experminent, I think a new piece of wood is the answer.

Then save this piece of wood for another gun,,, with a larger lock!

John


Thanks for saying directly what I was picking my way around the edges of....its why I asked just what the investment was that was really at stake here....IE: was it money for the stock wood or time invested to date, etc...but not being a builder lack credibility to ask such things
 ;D

Offline Longknife

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #39 on: March 25, 2011, 05:29:53 PM »
Dr, Boone,;  If I am seing the pic right it looks to me that  the spot you have for the touch hole is almost dead on the seam where the nock typ breech plug shoulders against the back of the barrel .If I am seing this right the touchhole liner will be 1/2 in the barrel and 1/2 in the solid breech threads. To my way of thinking you will have to move the liner back 1/2 inch and put it into the solid part of the breech. Then drill into the face of the breech plug to a depth to meet the touchhole liner. Could be I'm Jest sting things though???Bob

Thats exactly what I was thinking. If that line is the seam at the nock style patent breech, it is counterbored and the touch hole needs to be centered between the seam and back end of the breech, you are at least 1/2 inch too far forward. The touch hole then gets drilled to intersect with the counterbore??? Look up Nock's breech on TOTW 's website, you will see what I mean....Ed
« Last Edit: March 25, 2011, 05:33:48 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Gaeckle

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2011, 05:44:17 PM »
This may sound terrible, but why not start over with a fresh piece of wood and set this aside for another project that you can use the same lock shape (or larger) with another barrel of the same size?

Offline Captchee

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2011, 06:01:06 PM »
 Jerry  LMAO . You sneaky old dog LOL


At this point I don’t see a reason to start over . You just need to adjust for Fire .

 Sometimes what Cody has mention  about putting a screw into the standing breech works very well .
 I have had to do that a couple times with   replacing locks for  cap locks.
In fact I have seen it done on many SXS  as well  IE instead of 1 lock bolt , there are 2  that screw into the standing breech . One for each lock

 But here is what I see ,.
 Concerning the photo with your lock plate in  the mortise
 It appears that your barrel isn’t setting   to the proper depth at  the breech end .
Now again maybe im just seeing distortion in the photo   or  maybe the case  is that you  have the edge of the stock diving down to the lock .. But  judging from your photo and assuming the  edge of you  stock is true . Then the barrel and tang need to drop down  considerably ..
  If this is indeed true , then your lock is not to low .

 Now  im also assuming that the line im seeing  on the barrel  coming down to the  pan , is  a pencil line , showing the  face of your breech..
 If so , again this tells me that  the barrel needs to come down  and in fact can come down   judging by the amount of wood  left between the top edge of the lock and the  top of the standing breech .


 As to patching and re inletting the lock .
As another poster stated .  Your never going to be happy with a patch .
 I have an old SXS  stock out in my shop that I  sometimes use for patterns .
 On this original , the lock mortises are separate pieces . So in actuality the  stock is a 3 piece stock .
 It appears that at some time , a person planed off the original  mortises  glued on  a new piece of wood for , on both sides , so as to  inlet new locks .  The joints are very tight and the glue lines were hidden in the  relief of the mortise itself .
  I have had this old stock for some 25 years .  As such the above is now noticeable . But I assure you that when I got the stock  ,  the above was not noticeable, even on close inspection . The patches were that perfect,.

 Myself I would suggest to step back . don’t go  trying to change things until  you have a good idea of what you need to do  . All to often  people jump head long into a repair . Thinking  they have the answer when in fact they don’t .

 Myself at this point I think you would be much better off , bringing the  barrel to the lock vs. trying to take the lock to the barrel . Once you have the flash hole   aligned proper . Then work out your screw placement .

As to screw placement  . What I would do is make a stepped  lock  bolt  that  would replace the top forward screw  on the Bridle . You will thus  clear your standing breech and tang .
 Have a trough bolt  and have all the  lock workings , proper . IE no changes to the lock , no adding plates …………………

 And jerry , you better be at the next shoot , I have to redeem myself .
 Though I would say that  beating me  with your hawk an knife score  shouldn’t count as beating me on the trail . I still out shot you  LMAO

Offline Captchee

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2011, 06:04:26 PM »
PS . if that is a  Improved breechplug , then i would just build up the face of the standing breech so as to move the whole barrel forwards the needed distance .

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2011, 08:29:07 PM »
The breech plug is just a standard plug that I cut the tan off of. The hook does not extend beyond the back of the standing breech. The plug is the standard 5/16" long on this Longhammock barrell. I will cut an internally coned touch hole just so it will clear the front of the plug.

I am still studying on it and considering all your great ideas!!  :o :o ;D

Taylor, I never dreamed that a lock wouldn't just fit with any barrel, breech design....... :-[ Oh well, there is always something to learn.....keeps us young.... but this kingd of thing seems to happen more frequently every year after my wife has another birthday......... ;D
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2011, 09:22:55 PM »
Tim,
If that were a percussion gun, it would look like this.  I cobbled this together years ago from extra parts laying around the shop, but never got around to finishing it.  This is an old flint hook breech from Golden Age Arms, but I put a drum in it instead of a touch hole.  This breech setup has a powder channel down the center of it.

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2011, 10:52:56 PM »
I've noticed allot of suggestions that the lock bolt may be threaded into the standing breech which solves the problem of where to install the bolt but in this case I believe that one of Tim's concerns was the location of the tail end of the lock with relation to the angle of the stock architecture.  If this is indeed a concern then the lock will need to be re-inlet will it not? Not too many options if this is the case.  Ordering a new blank or splicing in a new section of wood into the lock mortise area of the current blank are the only options that I can think of.

Tim, is the tail of your lock where it needs to be or does it need to be raised???

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2011, 11:45:00 PM »
Heck, since everyone has given an opinion I might as well give mine.  I don't like filler, epoxy, bondo etc.  Patching it is an option, but it will likely be difficult to hide the joint.  Lets put it this way, patching it well will likely be more difficult than the initial lock inlet.  I like the idea of using a bigger lock.  Might just solve all of your problems.  It might also allow you to correct a few of the inletting mistakes as well.  The last option I see is to throw this piece of wood aside and get another.  Doesn't have to be anything spectacular at this stage.  Maybe a piece of NY state sugar maple will be available. 

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2011, 11:58:44 PM »
I've noticed allot of suggestions that the lock bolt may be threaded into the standing breech which solves the problem of where to install the bolt but in this case I believe that one of Tim's concerns was the location of the tail end of the lock with relation to the angle of the stock architecture. If this is indeed a concern then the lock will need to be re-inlet will it not? Not too many options if this is the case. Ordering a new blank or splicing in a new section of wood into the lock mortise area of the current blank are the only options that I can think of.

Tim, is the tail of your lock where it needs to be or does it need to be raised???

You are right on the whole lock need to come up a good 1/16th of an inch and the tail needs to come up between 1/4 and 1/2 inch..... in the picture you can see the lock nose is perfectly centered on the web and that features that essentially sit on the top of the bolster are pointed up in the front instead of being more or less parallel with the line formed by the side and obliques of the barrel.. I haven't cut out the wrist yet but the tang of the standing breech is curved to the right angle. So to get the tail where it needs to be on the wrist, get the pan where it needs to be and be able to use a lockbolt to hold the lock on I have to move the tail up and the whole lock back a little.... The standing breech is too thin to take a hole tapped for a screw...guess I could weld a small plate to it and tap that but I think the best idea is to make a screw that will come through the stock an screw into the forward bridle screw hole.

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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2011, 12:09:51 AM »
Heck, since everyone has given an opinion I might as well give mine.  I don't like filler, epoxy, Bondo etc. Patching it is an option, but it will likely be difficult to hide the joint. Lets put it this way, patching it well will likely be more difficult than the initial lock inlet.  I like the idea of using a bigger lock. Might just solve all of your problems. IT might also allow you to correct a few of the inletting mistakes as well. The last option I see is to throw this piece of wood aside and get another. Doesn't have to be anything spectacular at this stage. Maybe a piece of NY state sugar maple will be available.  

Jim, tonight I will compare what I can do with the early Ketland.vs filling, shaving down the area of the lock panel and gluing the piece back on that I cut off the lock side ...and then reinletting so that it will work..... we will see tonight just exactly what has to be done....lots of good ideas here and sure a lot of helpful attitudes!!  I will photo document the process no matter whether it leads to success or total embarrassment. Thanks
« Last Edit: March 26, 2011, 12:11:00 AM by Dr. Tim-Boone »
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Stupidity and arrogance -- how to save my investment/
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2011, 12:59:16 AM »
Another option....  Shape out the stock including the lock panel area.  Get it cut down to final size.  Glue in filler blocks for the cavity.  Cut off the entire lock panel surface to a depth such that it can largely be hidden by the carved lock panel moldings.  Glue on a piece of appropriate thickness and inlet the lock again.  With care the results should be pretty good, but it won't be easy and will take some time.  It's an option though.

A couple more points...  I think it's good to either roughly shape the butstock or at least have the stock profile well established prior to inletting the lock.  The placement is much easier this way.  Finally, a little about inletting.  Make sure your tools are sharp. Establish the perimeter of the inlet by stabbing vertically to create a clean outline.  Remove wood inside this outline.  Stab again deeper and remove the wood inside again.  The goal is to create an inlet that is cut and relatively clean.  References to this procedure may help.  I know John Bivins wrote a good article on lock inletting that may be of use.  Once techniques are mastered, your work will be improved as well as efficiency.  There are lots of things to inlet on a gun so it's something that ought to be understood and mastered early on.


Good luck,
Jim