Appropriate lock for a Hudson Valley Fowler

[Tommy Bruce]

I have a piece of Walnut shaped into a Hudson Valley Fowler with a .72 cal 48" Getz barrel that I'd like to start on when I'm finished with my kiddo's rifle.  I'm contemplating using a Chambers Early English or Germanic lock for this build.  I'd be interested in hearing any suggestions for a more appropriate lock if any, I've also thought about using the R E Davis Jaeger lock or their fowler lock.  The time period I'm interested in would be 1740's.  I'm looking to recreate something that a New York farmer would've used for hunting & militia duty.

Thanks,
Tommy

[Stophel]

I would like to build one myself.  To do one the way I would want it, I would have to either make a lock from scratch, or buy one of the lock sets from The Rifle Shoppe.  Big round faced Dutch lock.  I don't know of anything ready made that comes even close.

[rich pierce]

The early ones had Dutch locks and the TRS lock is a good one.  Later on English locks were often used.  The top one here has an English lock and is 1750-1760 IMHO and the Davis round faced is a good option.  The lower one has a (guessing) Dutch military musket lock with a period cock replacement from a Charleville.  Or a really bad reconversion.  The lockplate is huge and beveled.  I think the Chambers Germanic is a little small and the Davis jaeger could work.  It would work even better with a modified lockplate.   Even so it lacks the mass of many early musket or fowling gun locks.







Here's an original lockplate i hope to build up into a lock for such a project.  It's about the right size for such a gun, compared favorably in mass and size to the TRS Dutch lock, but is beveled.

[Stophel]

They did flat locks too, of course, and that is an awesome lockplate, Rich!

I have gotten to see only one of these guns in person, and the sheer scale of these guns is amazing.  HUGE.

[cmac]

I built one a while back that had a large queen anne lock. The flintlock fowlers book has pics of many originals. Mine was on the contemporary makers blog a week or so back but pics are not good

[bob in the woods]

Would the new Davis lock work?  It's huge.

[rich pierce]

Bob, it's huge for a Germanic rifle lock but these were massive guns, locks often 6.5 to 7".  I think an English lock looks better than the Davis germanic on a fowler.

Stophel, here's the inside of that lock.  I have to figure out how to make threaded screws for it to fit the existing lockholes.



Here's the biggest Dutch lock I've seen and handled.  1720-1740. Styled like the TRS Dutch lock but bigger yet.  The frizzen was the size of a tulip.


Here's an original with a nice Dutch lock on it.


And a nice Dutch fowling piece with a fancier lock, but in a plainer version would be sweet for a HVF.

[Tommy Bruce]

Sort of what i was thinking guys.  I'm still a long way from calling myself a gunstocker let alone a lock builder .  I had hoped jim would have his new lock out but it doesn't look like that's going to happen anytime soon.  I know it costs a bunch of money to tool up and build locks but I wish someone would make an early fowler lock and a fist model bess lock. 

[rich pierce]

OK, last one for today, I promise.  Here's one that could well be replicated using the Davis jaeger lock.

[Stophel]

Stophel, here's the inside of that lock.  I have to figure out how to make threaded screws for it to fit the existing lockholes.

Totally unrelated to the question at hand, but I just noticed this on the lockplate and thought I'd point it out.  Note the four little hash marks on the front edge of the lockplate under the front screw hole.  The lock assembler would put similar hash marks on the other parts like bridle, sear, etc so that he wouldn't get the parts confused with parts from other locks on his bench.     I need to start doing that just to add a little "authenticity"  (though marks are not found on all locks, by any means).

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim Chambers doesn't hashmark his locks.

Those assembler marks are on many guns, especially production or military guns. The whole parts set might be marked, guard, buttplate, sideplate, etc.

[Acer Saccharum]

Rich, I am amazed that there are still casecolors on that plate. What a wonderful find.


I just got a CNC lathe, and will be able to make threads of any configuration. Of course, there is a big learning curve to learn how to run it. I ain't there yet.

You can put a little Silly Putty on the side of a toothpick, press that gently on the side of the screw hole. Check the impression carefully against a thread pitch gage.

[Captchee]

 
 i been very happy with the  large Davis on mine .
 though i must admit that i didn’t hold true to  form and did the  hardware in Damascus.
 Im thinking there were a couple in flintlock fowlers that had Dutch dog locks on them





 

[Kermit]

My fowling piece has a Davis jaeger on it. The curve to that lockplate works out well, I think. I kinda think the round-faced locks made these days look pretty English. It would be nice if someone would make a lock appropriate to these guns!

[Captchee]

It would be nice if someone would make a lock appropriate to these guns!

 thats the thing kermit , there isn’t  one type of lock that is  correct  unless you go very early .
 by the mid to later half of the 18th century . the influences  were  merging .
 Thus English butt plates , TG , locks ………..
 Even barrels and their   lengths were varying . some  of these show  roots with the Spanish .  not the Dutch or English . Some were O to R and others tapered  round . Some had long tangs , others short . Some had rear sights or dished tangs . Others did not .
 So I think if we  ask  how about some correct locks . Well how about correct barrels    in lengths up to 72 inches and in large bore ?
 What about stocks ? The stocks were changing as well
 The thing though IMO with the HV is that as soon as you define  to a fine line . Someone’s going to come along and show you  your line  really shouldn’t be so fine .
So really a person has to pick  a given piece  and then run with it  or , look at many different examples and then try and come up with some type of average .

 with the HV there  doesnt seem to be  a whole lot that is cut and dry

[Tommy Bruce]

Thanks for the pics and advice.  I really like the looks of that flat Jaeger style lock on the pic you posted Rich.  Cap, that is a beautiful fowler, did you make it?  What type and gauge of barrel? 

[Kermit]

Good points, Cap! Thanks.

[Captchee]

Thank you Tommy  yes I made it
 Im probably going to get a lot of BOOO’s from folks here  on it  for going  so far away from
 Historic examples. that’s why up until now I have not posted a photo of it here .
 Bust I had a chance to make something for myself for once . Which I don’t often get to do .
So I built what I wanted .
 When it comes to smooth bores , I really love small gages   below 20 . So I had  
  the barrel  made for me  by a  friend  who runs a machine shop  the barrel is 12L14.
The barrel is 52 inches .  at the breech she measures 1 and 1/8
Its tapered OtoR   with the octagon section being  10 inches   transitioning with no bands and  of a bore of .553 .
 so as you can see she has a fast taper .
 The hardware is all  Damascus  that I forged out from a  old set of  SXS barrels that  I had that were beyond usable .
 The thumb piece  and front site  I made from an old liberty  silver dollar . The gargoyle   design is  from one of Torsten Lenks    drawings of an early  French  fowler .
 So historically speaking , she is under bore and carries  the  wrong   hardware material .. Even the barrel length  is at about the minimum that one could probably document for a HV .
 
 But I tell you this . She is a shooter ..
  There are some drawbacks though .
a)  when its hot outside the heat waves from the barrel will near obscure the front sight .
b) the  pattern with shot , even at 25 yards is   near EF , even though she is a cylinder bore . I have had one he77 of a time getting  the pattern to open up . As of yet I have not gotten a modified pattern out of her. But im still working on it .

 here are a couple more photos go give you some idea of the leanght even with  the 52 inch barrel

[Captchee]

PS , be advise that  shaping the  relief  areas under the comb and then transitioning to the wrist , isnt a who lot of fun .

[Dan'l 1946]

Maybe it's no fun shaping the buttstock, Capt., but it sure is worth doing! You did a  great job and that is a beautiful fowler! Thanks for the photographs.
                       Dan

[Captchee]

thank you  for the kind words

[Stophel]

The Damascus parts are cool.  Everybody deserves to do a fantasy gun every once in a while.   

[Capt Mike]

That should be a turkey killin' machine, Captchee.

[Pete G.]

FYI Jack Brooks lists casting for a Dutch lock on his website.

[Captchee]

That should be a turkey killin' machine, Captchee.

yep it will be that .
so far she has been real good with RB as well .
 i think though if i ever build another . i would like to go with a higher end piece  and  make one of the locks Rich showed and do it all in brass .

 but back on topic .
 while some of the locks are not avalable   one could go the exstra mile and make  a  round face lock plate and use the internals , frizzen , pan and modify the cock from  say a davis Jeager