Davis Early Germanic lock-what type of gun

[Jim Curlee]

I've got a few extra parts, one of which is an RE Davis, Early Germanic lock.
What type of gun would compliment the lock?
Thanks
Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Early PA rifle, something with a little more Germanic flavor than a late kentucky. There is a pronounced banana to the lockplate shape, so a robust gun, or one with rapid drop at the wrist would be appropriate. It's hard to use this lock on a gun with a straight stock.

This is where I used the Germanic lock, in an early styled gun. I had a struggle to get the lock appropriately placed into a small piece of wood, as I had bark at the toe of the butt, and rot at the top of the butt. In other words, the piece of wood dictated the drop, and the lock placement became a challenge. A bigger piece of wood, a little more drop at the wrist would have made for easier lock placement.

click on first photo to see lock placement:
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2011/03/early-american-rifle-ca-1750-to-1760-by.html

[Curt Larsen]

Tom, I know that you have had compliments on this rifle before, but here is just one more.  Thanks for sharing.  I have a lock discussed here and have been contemplating what to build around it.  You've given me some great ideas.
Curt

[Acer Saccharum]

Curt, I have been occasionally talking with other gun nuts about early barrel profiles, and we concluded there are a number of barrels with flared breeches, an upswept breech, and a bent down tang. This we term a 'humped' breech. This hump gives a very different stock architecture than the 'norm' PA rifle we are accustomed to.

I would say that this is seen more often in European guns than in America, but there are isolated American guns where this humped style breech shows up. Most likely these guns were made with imported barrels.

A banana lock would be perfect to use with the humped breech and downswept wrist.

Going out on a limb, A straighter breech section would be begging for a straighter lockplate. Changes in style and market demands would make the humped breech barrel obsolete, and the banana lock went with it.

I love these old guns and the thoughts they provoke.

Thanks, Tom

[Stophel]

I'd like to get some barrels with more flare at the breech, myself.   

The Davis banana lock CAN be straightened out a bit to make it look much more normal.



This is a Davis "French fusil" lock from Track of the Wolf, but it's the same thing.  The tail end is slightly shortened and filed up.  I don't think I bent it at all.  The nose of the lockplate I MAY have bent up a bit, I don't remember (a bit of minor surgery that more than one lock can benefit from.  The Chambers lock REALLY does MUCH better with the nose of the lockplate bent up a bit.)  With the filed lines already in the tail of the lockplate, you may have to be a bit careful in how you refile the shape, but you should be able to sufficiently "move" and reshape the file marks to match the new tail profile.

[Acer Saccharum]

Thanks, Stoph. This reminds me, I reshaped this very lock for anothe project. I filed a bunch of the banana out, and re-cut the rebate with a  a chisel.

[Acer Saccharum]

Here is a humped breech gun for describing what I'm talking about. The upward flare of the barrel continues into the tang. The downward bend occurs ONLY in the tang itself. Note how the banana in the lock flows with the curve of the wrist. This is a good example of the hardware dictating the form of the gun.

It is so important to realize when you have a bunch of parts to know what you can and can't do with your architecture. It goes beyond just selecting the 'right' time period and culture. This is where many builders will make a drawing of their project ahead of time. One can avoid painting himself into a corner by making a working drawing. Touch hole, Lock and lock bolt positions can be determined ahead of time, instead of that 'oh, $#@*, how do I get myself out of this one?' moment. How do I know?

[Stophel]

This is the Chambers lock.  It is not quite finished yet, but here you can see the new shape of the lockplate with the nose bent up (where it should be   )  A prettier shape, plus, it lets you center the lock bolt where it should be.  It also helps in the positioning of the frizzen spring.

[rich pierce]

I think 65span was inquiring about the DAVIS Germanic lock, not Chambers early Germanic.  Acer, you used it for the bench copy of "Doc's" rifle, IIRC.

[Leatherbelly]

 Nice Rifle,Tom-Tom! You build it? I sure like the trigger position on this one. I see lots of rifles with the trigger too far back along with their TG's. Nice rifle who ever done it.Thanks for posting.

[Jim Kibler]

What a wonderful lock, Tom.  I don't believe I've seen this gun.  Anyone want to play "what is it".  Could be fun.  How about your thoughts...

Jim

[Leatherbelly]

my untrained eye says Moravian.1740's?

[rich pierce]

I know but don't want to ruin your fun.

[Jim Kibler]

I have some ideas and was about to just start running my mouth, but then had the thought that I probably do that too much.   Thought this might be a better approach.

[Acer Saccharum]

Ah, $#@*.  65pan's asking about DAVIS, not CHAMBERS. My apologies. That would be the one known as the Jack Haugh lock? That lock can accommodate a nice drop to the wrist and a big barrel.



A few more locks to whet your appetite.

[Acer Saccharum]

All three of those original locks are on jaegers. I don't have full length pictures, unfortunately.

[Acer Saccharum]

Rich, the project you mentioned above, the bench copy, uses the Davis COLONIAL.



The photography is by Jim Filipski. He's really good.

[Jim Kibler]

Back again.  It's lock polishing day.  Breaks are very tempting! Your gun looks good Tom.  The finish looks a little darker and richer than when I saw it at Dixon's  if I am remembering correctly.  Guess I have seen the gun that I was questioning.   After you posted the others, my memory was jogged.

[rich pierce]

Acer, thanks, I need to re-check the Davis models and get them straight. That's the Davis Germanic on the Faire Gonne, eh?  Looks great.

[Stophel]

I think 65span was inquiring about the DAVIS Germanic lock, not Chambers early Germanic.  Acer, you used it for the bench copy of "Doc's" rifle, IIRC.

I know, it's Tom's fault for veering off to the Chambers....

 

[Jim Curlee]

You guys have really taken a left. LOL
One more thing my lock is not a round faced lock, it's flat.
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Here's my best guess concerning the lock I've been blabbing about.  I'd say Germanic and about 1710.   Perhaps made in the areas Carlsbad, Vienna or maybe Chronach (where Wagner worked).  The lock is interesting in that it has a lot of the French Classical Louis XIV style in it, but also has some strong germanic features.  Strong Germanic features are the frizzen spring, the pan and even perhaps the frizzen shape.  The rest of the lock structure is heavily influenced from the French Louis XIV style.  The chiseling and engraving also seems Germanic in nature due to the heavy reliance of acanthus leaf decorative elements.  This isn't encountered in French styles of this period.  Also from the photo you can see that the guard has a developed  raised grip rail and formed bow.  I'm not sure when this feature first showed up, but I'd guess between 1700 and 1710.  Also the carved tabs at the tail of the lock are developed to a state that somewhere around 1710 seems reasonable.  Ok, that's all that comes to mind at the moment.  I'd be interested in hearing what you know about it Rich.

[Stophel]

You guys have really taken a left. LOL
One more thing my lock is not a round faced lock, it's flat.
Jim

The first lock I pictured was the Davis lock   

[Stophel]

What a wonderful lock, Tom.  I don't believe I've seen this gun.  Anyone want to play "what is it".  Could be fun.  How about your thoughts...

Jim

Are we playing "Guess the Gun"?     Can't see enough of it, really.  I'm gonna guess Bavarian.  Triggerguard looks Bavarian.

[Acer Saccharum]

Your gun looks good Tom.  The finish looks a little darker and richer than when I saw it at Dixon's  if I am remembering correctly.  Guess I have seen the gun that I was questioning.   After you posted the others, my memory was jogged.

I have to say that The photography is most excellent. The danger in having Filipski take the pictures: his photography may make the gun look better than in real life.


The acanthus on the lock tail is so sharp, you could get cut on it. The points of the leaves stick right out, looking for flesh to impale.