Author Topic: Another Hawken (fullstock)  (Read 19661 times)

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6534
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2011, 04:04:42 PM »
Well Brant, it looks like by about the time you get done with # 87 or 88 you might have figured this Hawken thing out, eh?? Maybe you will even be able to get some glowing praise from other fine gunmakers like Taylor.............. ;) :D

I am not partial to color casehardening.......but the overall effect of this rifle is fantastic......I wish I had the bragging rights!!  Ya done good!!!! :o :o
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

WB Selb

  • Guest
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2011, 06:42:31 PM »
Dan's info. is correct, the CC work was done by Keith at Wyoming Armory. I have tried others who do metal treating but have found that in the end, the work quality, price, and turn around time by the folks at Wyoming Armory cannot be beat; I can recommend their work without reservation.
Doc. #'s 87 and 88 are coming up soon and each is an entirely different project from it's siblings: #85 is a two barrel squirrel rifle set (.36 and .45 cal.), #86 is a .56 cal. halfstock, and #87 is a fullstock flinter.
I would like to thank everyone for the warm welcome to your forum and the kind words.
www.Hawkenrifles.com


Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12554
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2011, 11:09:13 PM »
Tim, I beat you to it on page one.

But to follow it up, I'd like to offer some constructive critique.  Below is a photo of a full stocked Hawken rifle from Jim Gordon's fabulous book.  There are several aspects that I think could improve your Hawken rifles.  In this particular rifle, the forend cap does not quite come all the way down to the ramrod, but it is a lot closer than in your rifle.  Making the nose piece a little deeper would improve the look.  And that likely means making it yourself, rather than using a commercial effort.
The panel around the lock, at the for'd end, needs to be shaped differently than you have done.  It drops down about 5/16" ahead of the plate approaching the plate and then runs more or less parallel to the forward most part.  Also, the panel is narrower along the top behind the breech.  These are small details but it's these details that makes or breaks the recreation.
In one photo, I can see that your lower forend is somewhat slab-sided.  The wood should be made very thin at the barrel channel rounding as you go down to the bottom.  You may need to make the bottom of the forend almost egg shaped to get this on such a deep forend, but it too makes a big difference in the "look".
Please accept these as constructive comments which are in no way a "put down" of your lovely Hawken.
I still can't get over the spectacular case colours!!

D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Skychief

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 650
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2011, 03:45:51 AM »
Mr. Selb, I have bookmarked your site.   Your work is fantastic and I am a huge fan of Hawken rifles.   I may be contacting you regarding a "Squirrel" rifle one day!

Best regards, Skychief.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9758
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2011, 05:31:22 PM »
Mr. Selb, I have bookmarked your site.   Your work is fantastic and I am a huge fan of Hawken rifles.   I may be contacting you regarding a "Squirrel" rifle one day!

Best regards, Skychief.

The Buffalo Bill Historical Society Firearms Museum has an extensive collection of Hawkens. If you can possibly get there its worth the trip for the Hawkens alone.
Some are viewable on line like these of the rifle Taylor furnished pictures of.
http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/CFM_ObjectPage.cfm?museum=CFM&VarObjectKey=38459

This page allows zooming into the photos of the S Hawken FS.

There is a page with a J&S FS  rifle but the photos are actually of 2 different rifles. Neither being a "classic" Hawken as we expect both being more like Heavy kentuckies and on is probably what would be called and "over the chunk" rifle today.
Search page

http://old.bbhc.org/collections/bbhc/Search_cfm.cfm?method=byMake

While the dimensions were often larger the J&S and S Hawken rifles were very carefully shaped and contoured. They really have no excess wood on them. But the barrels are generally heavier having less taper than the swamped barrel and the rods are larger so the stock must be too.

There are some areas that could be tweeked to improve the rifle you have pictured. As Taylor has stated please take this as intended, as constructive criticism. Your workmanship is excellent. But as with a Kentucky the LINES are everything and its the SUBTLETIES that really make a difference.
The photos above will allow zooming to points of interest on the FS rifle though the photos sometimes still lack detail the contours of the forend can be seen.
I feel entry pipe and the transition from ramrod groove to fore end cap are a little too abrupt on your rifle.
 The photos below are from the "Bridger" Hawken in Helena Montana.
While this is an S Hawken HS rifle the transition at the rod pipe is very much like the FS rifle on page 27 of Baird's "Hawken Rifle, The Mountainman's Choice".







The first FS Hawken I built was in 1968 or so and I eventually dismantled it and burnt the stock. ;D



This is the muzzle end of a FS "Hawken" I built in the early 1990s.


http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i199/DPhariss/ML%20Guns/Perchawken003.jpg
There are things I would do different on this rifle today INCLUDING the entry pipe.
The making of the "American Rifle", which the Hawken is a version of, is an ongoing learning experience.
If the builder is REALLY lucky he has someone around to tell him now and then that he has a lump or corner that needs to be changed. I took a "shaped" rifle over to a friend about 3-4 years ago and when I came in the door from across the room he told me the buttstock below the comb needed more wood removed. He was right of course I simply had missed it.  ;D

Dan


He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

willyr

  • Guest
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2011, 08:20:42 PM »
One of the biggest problems in buying "parts sets" from any of the suppliers is that awful cast entry thimble. It makes the forearm at least 3/16" deeper than it needs to be.

Bill

Offline Glenn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 507
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2011, 02:31:28 AM »
One of the biggest problems in buying "parts sets" from any of the suppliers is that awful cast entry thimble. It makes the forearm at least 3/16" deeper than it needs to be.

Bill

Thanks for pointing this little detail out. I never thought about it and I'll need to keep it in mind.   ;D
Many of them cried; "Me no Alamo - Me no Goliad", and for most of them these were the last words they spoke.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12554
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2011, 03:45:21 AM »
There needs to be no more than 1/8" of wood under the rod hole.  The step in the entry pipe is really quite gentle...Dan's photos of the Bridger rifle show this.  But the rifles frequently have a 7/16" or 1/2" rod, so this makes the forend deep, not to mention the 1/4" of the under rib.  Of course, with a full stocked rifle, one can make things a little slimmer.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.

Offline Dphariss

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9758
  • Kill a Commie for your Mommy
Re: Another Hawken (fullstock)
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2011, 04:03:37 AM »
One of the biggest problems in buying "parts sets" from any of the suppliers is that awful cast entry thimble. It makes the forearm at least 3/16" deeper than it needs to be.

Bill

Thanks for pointing this little detail out. I never thought about it and I'll need to keep it in mind.   ;D

A considerable number of "Hawken" parts are not proper for making a Hawken.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine