English butt plate

[sydney]

I am about to install a butt plate in a English 1/2 stock flintlock and noticed the long top tang is damaged- looking for information/pictures on a shorter example
that i can change mine to-
  Thanks in advance
                 Sydney

[northmn]

I understand that when you spend a lot of money to make an authentic rifle that you want to be authentic.  However, I think small variations or modifications are authentic as all the early guns were handmade and and certain variations were not uncommon to accomodate such situations.

DP

[Dave B]

Here are a couple of Original long tang butt plates from English pieces. They are close to each other but one is slightly longer than the other. The thing that I found interesting is the longer one is designed with the golden mean. The divisions of the step downs are according to my calipers done with this method. Given this information you should be able to remove the damaged portion and lay out the new proportions according to the golden mean and you will have it looking like it was intended.






The division is made up from the middle section being 3/5 th's  and the either ends  being 2/5 th's. I dont count the little tit on the end of the finial in this. You should also note that the widths of the sections are also broken down with the golden mean.

[don getz]

The Golden Mean.....this is something that is bantered about quite a bit.  I think a good gun builder can build a good gun
without the use of those wonderful "dividers" that I have seen.  A good gunbuilder must have a "feel" for what he is
shaping, and a sense of proper proportion.   I have always been somewhat of a skeptic about the golden mean, sure,
it works, but I have never been sure how to apply it to a raw piece of wood.   After a gun is built, you can take those little dividers and say, gee, that cheek piece is 2/5 of the distance from the end of the lock panel to the butt plate, or gee whiz, look at this, the comb is 3/5 of the length of the buttstock from the end of the barrel to the butt plate.  My question is, was it planned this way or did it just happen because the guy who built this gun had a good "eye"....that's what separates the great gunbuilders from the ho-hum gunbuilders.  For those of you that use these little dividers, do you use
them merely as measuring tools to transfer measurements from a picture to the gun you are building?  I can see that as
a useful tool, but it's not really "golden" to me...........Don

[P.W.Berkuta]

Nicely put Don, That is my position on the golden mean also. There are certain parts that MUST be placed in a certain position or the rifle will not function. Does their location fall within the golden mean rule - I don't know but I know if I build a rifle and it doesent look "quite right" in a certain area I will surely be changing that area to look like it "flows" into the rest of the architecture.

The Golden Mean.....this is something that is bantered about quite a bit.  I think a good gun builder can build a good gun
without the use of those wonderful "dividers" that I have seen.  A good gunbuilder must have a "feel" for what he is
shaping, and a sense of proper proportion.   I have always been somewhat of a skeptic about the golden mean, sure,
it works, but I have never been sure how to apply it to a raw piece of wood.   After a gun is built, you can take those little dividers and say, gee, that cheek piece is 2/5 of the distance from the end of the lock panel to the butt plate, or gee whiz, look at this, the comb is 3/5 of the length of the buttstock from the end of the barrel to the butt plate.  My question is, was it planned this way or did it just happen because the guy who built this gun had a good "eye"....that's what separates the great gunbuilders from the ho-hum gunbuilders.  For those of you that use these little dividers, do you use
them merely as measuring tools to transfer measurements from a picture to the gun you are building?  I can see that as
a useful tool, but it's not really "golden" to me...........Don

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

When I'm building a rifle, gun or pistol, it will be based on what I have seen before.  It doesn't have to be a copy of something, but the shape and flow come from the experience of having seen it before...the hourglass figure of a woman, other pleasing shapes from nature, or page after page of images of original rifles.  Of these, some will appeal to you and others will not.  You take and use the ones that do, and try to emulate and incorporate them into your work.  Personally, I can't be bothered to over think design, and for me, such is the "Golden Mean".  I'm with Don.

Sydney, just file the metal into a shape that pleases you.  You can't make it wrong.

[Acer Saccharum]

Perhaps we should start a separate thread for the "golden Mean'.........


Don G, you can use the golden mean, and still be a good gunbuilder. The two are not mutually exclusive. This is not to say that I use the mean, to me it's simply another tool in the box. It's down at the bottom of my toolbox, along with the sawdust and the gouges for stabbing the curves in relief carving.

Did I say that?*

Acer

*a quote I stole outright from Don Stith

[jerrywh]

We have run the course on the golden mean before. I just don't believe in it.  If something is ugly it's ugly. I don't care how you divide it.  If it's beautiful the same applies.  I could never make the golden mean fit Raquel Welch or an English rose.  The golden mean seems to be a sort of religion with some.
 I'm with don Getz.

[Scott Bumpus]

" GOLDEN MEAN"  Do unto thy rifle as thou would have thy rifle do unto thee!!