Dont want to darken it

[Dave Waters]

What kind of finish will not darken walnut? I'm doing one in Claro Walnut. Crazy wood to work with. Grain goes every where. I would like to keep it as natural as possible. I've done various tests on scraps with out much luck. Seems that any oil base goes real dark. The bare wood is lighter than American walnut and has various shades of grey in it like minerals. The only thing I've tried that comes close is a water base poly urethane shelack. Thought maybe doing several coats of that and then a boiled linseed thinking the shelack will prevent the oil from soaking in.


Dave Waters

[Kermit]

I use a lot of claro in my furniture. If you wanted lighter, you chose the wrong wood to begin with. The raw claro will look like you wet it no matter what you do. There are some finishes that are clearer and will stay that way longer, but that's about it. I've finished it with everything from BLO/beeswax to tung oil to white shellac and wax to catalyzed lacquer. It gets dark. American black walnut can get lighter with time.

Sorry to say I don't know of any satisfactory answer to your question. Claro can have amazing color variations and figure--the curly is amazing. My own dining table is made of live-edge bookmatched slabs with crotch and curl all over the place, and I never get tired of looking at it. I think you'll just have to appreciate it for what it is.

[Gunnermike]

Dave,
You can cross off "Tru-Coat by Wahkon Bay Outfitting" from your list of non-darkening finishes.  The ingredients are: Linseed Oil, Natural Pine Distillates, & Acetic Acid.  Great stuff to use on walnut to give the oxidized finish that you see on old military weapons, but it's exactly opposite of what you want.

I used it on my 1817 Common Rifle 4-1/2 years ago.  The walnut originally had an orange-red tone, today it is chocolate brown! (but it looks very authentic)

Got your swivel rifle book and it's great.  Good luck with your search.  Mike

[bgf]

The only thing I could think of was lacquer, and apparently that doesn't work.  I like walnut dark, so its not something I've spent a lot of time trying.  The water-based poly may be your best bet; people complain about its clarity ("coolness") all the time -- but I don't think it is going to let linseed oil cure properly on top.  With oil-based poly, I've had good luck building the layer I want with "gloss" (for its clarity) and then doing one final coat or two of satin to kill the shine.  If you can thin it and rub it on (never messed with water-based), then stop when you have just filled the pores, you can avoid the look of wood encased in glass to some extent.

[JCKelly]

You might get some ideas from James V. Howe's The Modern Gunsmith Volume I, Chapter 12, pp165-176. Try google-ing it if you don't have a copy.

[pathfinder]

Having been a furniture re-finisher for over 50 years now,there is nothing you can put on raw wood as a protectant that will not "darken" the wood. You'r not actually darkening the wood,just letting the reflectiveness show. I you REALLY want that raw color, 2 part bleach will significantlly lighten the wood. Not at all recommended! I'm afraid you'll just have to admire the natural beauty of the wood.

[keweenaw]

Dave,

You could try a coat of white shellac, that won't much darken the wood, and then use
Water-Locs sealer and finish over top of that.  This will give you a built up type finish but if you wipe the last couple coats of waterlocs with paper towels as they get tacky you won't end up with a glossy surface.

Tom

[Dphariss]

What kind of finish will not darken walnut? I'm doing one in Claro Walnut. Crazy wood to work with. Grain goes every where. I would like to keep it as natural as possible. I've done various tests on scraps with out much luck. Seems that any oil base goes real dark. The bare wood is lighter than American walnut and has various shades of grey in it like minerals. The only thing I've tried that comes close is a water base poly urethane shelack. Thought maybe doing several coats of that and then a boiled linseed thinking the shelack will prevent the oil from soaking in.


Dave Waters

Varathane is your best bet. Will look like $#@*, sorta like the figure was painted on, it may even reduce the color contrast, but will not darken the wood much.  The finish will likely fail if the firearms is actually used much, but maybe not plastic can be pretty amazing, but I doubt its elastic enough.
I would use my home boiled linseed but thats just me. I like the figure being enhanced.

This walnut 2x4 was not polished at all just as I had milled it with a fly cutter.
Varathane is the light stuff upper left. But it did nothing to bring out any of the hidden color or figure in the wood.



Concerning excessively darkened stocks.
Regardless of what some store bought finish may do a properly prepared linseed oil based finish will not continue to darken once its set. Most stocks, such as English Walnut, will show little darkening on first application but will darken somewhat over about a week then stabilize and will show more figure and better color tone.
So far as stock finish having acetic acid added, one of the purposes of heat modifying linseed oil is to add something to reduce the natural acids in the oil. Adding acid to the finish makes no sense since highly acidic materials put on/in a stock may well turn it black over time . But then there are a lot of things added to over the counter finishes that make little sense.
I would also point out that most of the gunsmiths manuals, Howe or anyone else need someone who knows more than the writer to sift the voodoo and myth from the actual usable material. I quit paying attention to them !@*%&@ near 30 years ago figuring out that is was mostly BS from the standpoint of ease off application and tradition.
I loved the one I read in "Gunsmith Kinks" a couple of months ago in which the guy recommended smearing chassis grease on a LS finish that was not drying saying it would be found to be dry when the grease was wiped off the next AM.  
In reality the petroleum oil (it is just oil with thickeners afterall) in the grease acts as a solvent and simply removes the uncured LS oil.

Dan

[bgf]

Dan, Varethane is likely the clearest of the oil-based polyurethanes, because it has the least oil added (that's my understanding anyway).  It is also probably the hardest and most brittle for the same reason.  Probably not the best choice for a gun stock, as you say.

PS. -- I suspect the lack of depth to the figure comes from the clarity and would worry about the same problem with water based poly.

[Dave Waters]

Thanks for all your wisdom and suggestions. I'm always amazed at the wealth of knowledge that you all are willing to share.

Thanks again.

Dave

[Dave Waters]

Kermit, I guess should have expressed my thought different.

I love the darker warmth of walnut. But, I have a stock that I did years ago that had beautiful figure in it but the oil base finish i used darkened it so much you can't hardly see the figure. I just was trying to keep that from happening again.

Thanks,

Dave Waters

[T*O*F]

I have a friend who likes natural color and the walnut he has is all very light.  He applies 4-5 coats of Permalyn sealer, allowing each coat to dry and sanding between coats.  Then he thins regular Permalyn to water consistency and applies 2 coats of that.  He uses his guns heavily as a competition target shooter and has suffered no ill effects.  This is northern IA black walnut.

[Dphariss]

Dan, Varethane is likely the clearest of the oil-based polyurethanes, because it has the least oil added (that's my understanding anyway).  It is also probably the hardest and most brittle for the same reason.  Probably not the best choice for a gun stock, as you say.

PS. -- I suspect the lack of depth to the figure comes from the clarity and would worry about the same problem with water based poly.

Virtually all the modern "clear" plastic finishes suffer from the same  deficiency you cite.
If you do a light built up coat of any of the popular plastics on a piece of wood and when dry drop a 50 caliber round ball on it from 30-36" you will surely find it cracks. Oil or a relatively soft oil varnish will simply dent and form to the  dent with out breaking the film. I have seen this on old rifles with "varnish" finishes that were certainly "cured".

Dan

[Blacksmoke]

Dave: Just for your reference - the attached photo is of the case for the "Masterpiece Rifle". The case is made out of American black walnut and finished with Whatco oil and floor wax.   The case is now ten yrs. old and there is no difference to the color from when I finished it.     Hugh Toenjes

[Dave Waters]

Blacksmoke, that color is what I would like to achieve. Of course this Claro is well figured. The curls and changed in open to closed grain are going to be all over the place in light to vary dark, but that is just the nature of the beast like Kermit said. I am just trying to keep it from being various shades of "very dark". (Sorry, I'm not very good at explaining myself)

Thanks all you've given me great info.

Dave

[Blacksmoke]

Dave:  I should also mention that the Whatco oil that I used for the walnut case had a Mahogany color to it .   I used the same oil for the walnut plug that I carved for the powder flask in the case.  See below:

[T*O*F]

I should also mention that the Whatco oil that I used for the walnut case had a Mahogany color to it

I assume you are talking about Watco Danish oil since it's the only one that comes pre-colored.  You used it correctly on your case, since it's a furniture finish intended for interior use only.  It will waterspot and suck moisture and is not suitable for a gunstock finish unless it is kept heavily waxed or has something applied over it.  Watco does offer an exterior finish suitable for outdoor use and it is only offered as a clear product but can be tinted.

[Blacksmoke]

T*O*F:  That is correct I meant Watco Danish oil - thanks for the correction.    Yes a good quality floor wax is what I used on the case and flask plug.   And I continue to apply the wax several times a yr.  I agree - my applications are not for exterior use.   However I believe that following a coat of Watco Danish oil a coat of weatherproof gunstock finish could be applied.     Hugh Toenjes