Experienced builder ?

[54Bucks]

 I'm planning to have a slim long (46" barrel) rifle built. I like the iron mounted Southern Mt. (Bull) type guns. Except for the thin curved butt. Would you experienced builders just adapt the stock for an earlier wide, straighter, butt or......would you suggest a different school?
 Also one general question regarding the balance for good offhand shooting. I've not yet decided on .45 or .50 cal. for this 46" barreled gun, but what do you guys prefer for offhand work?....swamped or oct. to round. I'm leaning towards swamped for a little more weight out front. It seems a heavier gun settles better and I'm aiming for around 8-8.5 lbs.......thanks

[Ed Wenger]

To me, one of the things that make a Southern Mt. gun is the crescent butt piece.  So, if you change that, I'm not sure you'd have a "Southern Mt." gun.  Then again, I'm no expert on Southern Mt. guns...

If you're not really fond of the crescent butt piece, there's plenty of other schools that have a straighter, wider butt.  Lancaster's come to mind, as well as some earlier Virginia guns, as well as others. 

I like a 46" barrel.  I've built two rifles with the swamped barrel Rice offers and thought they both handled, and held, very well.  I was concerned about the length, but found they were very well balanced guns.  Plus, there's just something about that long barrel that to me, speaks Longrifle!  I did them both in .50 cal primarily to keep the weight down, but I don't know if there would be a big difference between the .50 and .45.  Good luck, and I'm sure you'll be happy with a 46" barrel.

              Ed

[AndyThomas]

It sounds like you want what is called a "Woodbury School" rifle, a style made famous by the House boys. There are a number of builders who specialise in this style, including Ian Pratt, who posts on this forum, and Chuck Edwards, among others.

The Woodbury school rifles are a blend of the earlier fat butted style longrifles with the later iron mounted Mountain rifles.

Full octagon screams RIFLE, octagon to round says smoothbore, at least to me.

Andy

[KLMoors]

I picked up and fondled one of Ed's 46 inch guns at the show in Willimsburg last weekend. I found it stunningly nice in every regard. Very comfortable to hold and a pleasure to look at.  It was proof of how a gun with a "longer" barrel can still balance as well as any other well built gun. You'd have to check with him as to the particular school but if I wanted to get a gun built and had a 46 inch swamped barrel, and since I've actually held that one, it would be the gun I'd get.

[54Bucks]

 Thanks for the input so far Gents. I'm very impressed with Ian Pratt's work and would like to see him respond. Unfortunately I doubt I could afford one or live long enough to wait and take delivery. I had contacted Mike Gahagan and learned his waiting list is about 2 1/2 years. I'm not familiar with Edwards. Seems like the Woodbury and Virginia guns have much different lines than the Southern Mt. guns than just a wider straighter butt.

[G-Man]

If you like the Bull style hardware, I would stay away from a large, wide flat buttplate.  The fully evolved Bull style seems to be more of a post-1815 style whereas the very wide flat butts are more of a pre-1790s feature.  

That being said, you don't have to go super skinny and deep crescent on the butt.  Some of the 1790s era southwest Virginia stepped wrist iron mounted guns might interest you.  There are also some early mountain rifles of the late 1790s-1820 era, with somewhat flatter, just slighly curved butts that are over 1.5 inches wide.  Also some North Carolina piedmont iron mounted guns like this as well.  Since John Bull was making rifles  before 1810 we think, you could plausibly mix a Bull style guard with a slightly wider butt.  I have seen a number of nice contemporary rifles made like this - by folks like Ken Netting and Charlie Wallingford.  However, his earliest guns we have to examine - those that appear to be pre-1820 or so - did not yet have the fully evolved stylized guard with the forward curving spur on the grip rail.

I would definitely go with a full octagon barrel for a mountain rifle.

Guy

[Sean]

See the early John Bull rifle in Jerry Noble's book.  Can't recall if its in #1 or #2. It's likely the earliest surviving piece by him. Really neat gun with a relatively flat butt. Looks SW VA influenced.

My 0.02 on contemporary Appalachian rifles... The originals were long, slim and sleek, but heavy barreled, like 10+ lbs. The buttplates were heavily curved because the guns were small bore without much recoil and were intended to be shot off the biceps. Pretty much nobody wants such a gun these days. They want a 7-8.5 lb .50-54 cal with a flat buttplate.  That's why the Woodbury school guns have taken off in popularity.

Sean

[Don Getz]

54Buck..........just to clarify a barrel,  a swamped barrel is a "shape", not a style.     By that I mean, it can be full octagon
and be swamped, it can also be an octagon to round and be swamped (most are).    Another builder to consider would
be Lowell Haarer, doing some nice stuff, but, once again don't know how busy he might be.    Heck, I can't even make
barn guns fast enough.........slowing down in my elder years.............Don

[54Bucks]

Thanks Don,I do know barrel shapes. I've also seen plenty of rifled Oct.-round barrels used in Bucks Co. ect. Am aware many were originally smooth. But the rifle I was dreaming up was a conconction of a Bull(Southern Mt.) type lines with a more comfortable to me earlier wide/straight butt. I was also fishing for some feedback to compare handling characteristics for 46"swamped oct. to 46" oct.-round for the best offhand work,probably in .50 cal. (my guess is the oct.-round would be on the too light side)
 If your still watching Don could you give me an idea about the time to get a 46" or longer .50 cal. swamped Getz these days? It's a real pain in the butt when ya can't hear well enough to use the telephone for myself.

[Ron Brimer]

 I just built a 46 oct to rnd gun in 50, it handles well, I fear you would have a strange looking gun , if you mixed the s mtn with the wide butt, as said , Woodbury, SW VA might be your best way to go. I think that you would regret a late S MTN with a   early butt. If you have access to Weils book on contemporary makers( 1980s) look up Robert Watts, Bob used a slightly wider butt plate on his southern guns. I can give you the the info if you go in that direction. I worked for Bob in his shop . Bobs MTN guns were very popular ,left a lot of orders when he died.
Ron B

[bgf]

I would listen to Guy.  The 1790's SW Va. rifles with stepped wrists have a mildly crescent butt shape, but they are much wider than later rifles.  Depending on the pull length (etc.), you could probably set one up to shoot either shouldered or off the shoulder, whichever you prefer.  The iron hardware is a slightly simplified version of the brass mounts from the same period, and it is very elegant in its own right.  I prefer it to the later style, but that's just me.

[KLMoors]

Does anybody have any pics of these 1790 SW VA guns? I'm curious as to their details. And, When is Wallace going to finish that dang book on VA rifles?

[Don Getz]

54........one of the problems John has with barrels longer than 44", which is the longest he can do on the profile mill, is
the fact that it must be done as a custom barrel, which is run in a series of straight tapers from one point to another on
the barrel.   You can make a barrel to almost any shape doing it this way, but is very time consuming..........takes several
hours to mill one.   Since he is basically a one man shop, he kind of shies away from this sort of thing.  I think Rice can do
46" barrels on their profile shaper............Don

[G-Man]

The best place to see the stepped wrist guns is Wallace's articles in Muzzle Blasts.  Also, Dr. Whisker has shown  photos of two of the great iron mounted stepped wrist guns in "Gunsmith' of Virginia" (I think - if not they were in "Longrifles of Virginia") - one of which is the gun that is on display at MESDA in Old Salem.

I should be more exact - "southwest Virginia" is sort of a misnomer and at least an overgeneralization with regard to these style of "stepped toe" rifles, as Wallace's research has indicated that these stepped wrist guns were made from Botetourt and Augusta Counties all the way down through points far south and west in Virginia, and over into Tennessee, with the style perhaps originating with the maker of the Brass Barrelled Rifle.  (Wallace attributes that rifle to Hans Jacob Honaker.)  There are a number of examples that show the work of makers who made similar guns in both iron and brass mounts. 

Guy

[B Shipman]

54 Bucks, why not cut to the chase. A lot of very good builders here. Name your price and waiting time and see what floats.

[LURCHWV@BJS]

Ken Moors,

    Go to flintersmtih's website,  look at the rifles from Colonial Williamsburg.... Your're gonna love em


   Rich

[54Bucks]

 Glad you broke the ice Jim. I am looking for a builder! I want to follow the architectural lines(shape) of a Geo. Kreps.(similar to Schroyer) A simple build (no carving or patchbox,limited brass mounts) as I will provide a high premium maple blank and 46" Rice Bwt. swamped .50 cal. barrel. Looking for a builder who fits well,feels they could shape such a somewhat unconventional request, and is comfortable finishing with aqua fortis/oil. I'm not in a rush,but...
 So any interested builders please contact me privately to discuss my budget and details

[KLMoors]

Thanks Rich. Guy sent me some stuff too. Great looking guns!

[54Bucks]

no builders interested?

[tallbear]

PM sent !!

Mitch yates