Advice on a noob mistake

[bgf]

It almost certainly will never look right.  However, I would advise fixing it however you can and going on.  At this stage, you might be prone to making the same sort of mistake in other areas, and it wouldn't make sense to get a new piece of wood every time.  If you do a good job of splicing in wood, I can give you a decidedly non-HC finish that will mask anything short of a gaping hole...and look aged to boot if you squint; that might be an option if you need it.  Even if you just finish it and then use all the parts on a new build, I think you are ahead to go all the way through to shooting it.  If Allen Martin (to use a previous example) made this kind of mistake at this point, that would be a fluke, and he might just trash the stock and start over with a good deal of confidence that he wouldn't mess up the next one, but you need to ask yourself what is the case with you. 

[Long John]

I have to agree with Taylor.  It is time for some tough-love. 

The stock is now an expensive practice block.  Go back to the building a chunk gun tutorial thread and look at all the planning that went into the stock blank BEFORE the first bit of inletting was started.  If you fail to plan you have planned to fail.  It looks like you charged into the project without working out the details.  Did you produce a full-size drawing of the rifle you planned to build?  Did you then transfer that drawing to the blank, top and lock side, and verify that there are no conflicts between parts?  It doesn't appear from the photos that these steps were taken, yet they are the foundation for the whole project.

As for the tang - I don't know because I don't know how much filing work was done on it.  I have used hooked breech assemblies several times.  the castings are NEVER perfect, as received.  They always need a little fine fitting to make sure the link-up is nice and tight.  These are steps you should take BEFORE you start inletting.  On the tang sets I have used the holes are not in the tang - the gun maker puts in the holes.  Were the holes pre-existing?

Buy a new blank and tang and plan your work before executing it.

I am sorry if the above sounds harsh.  Somebody has to care enough about you to shoot straight with you and I am that somebody today.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Don Getz]

Wets..........we've all done things like this, most likely...  The second gun I built, a J.P.Beck copy, was kind of a bummerl
I had a beck stock rough shaped in the butt section and a small groove for the barrel.   I had an octagon to round Paris
50 cal. barrel to inlet.   Got that done, with a lot of difficulty.  My problem came when I fit the butt plate.  Initially had it
fit with the tip of the heel kicked up in the air.....didn't align with the comb...terrible.     Had to sit the gun in a corner for
a few weeks to cool off, not the gun, me.  I did go back finally and re-fit it, ended up with about a 12 1/2" pull, and rather short from top to bottom.   In the end it didn't turn out too bad, but sure *#)*^~ me at the time.   Even now I will end up
with something that doesn't go right, not the way I planned it, but I have learned how to  work around these mistakes,
and how to hide them.   As for your problem, I think I would try to straighten the tang so that is alighns with the barrel,
draw a centerline on the stock from the middle of the barrel at the breech and to the middle of where the buttplate would
be.    I would then square up the right side of the "bad" inlet......remove all the round tapers to a straight line, glue in a
piece of maple similar to what is there and then re-inlet the tang.   If you get a pretty good fit on that new wood, stain
it dark and it should work out OK.   Use it as a learning experience...............Don

[wetzel]

As much as the tough love stings the wounds I do appreciate it.  It took me a few days to get up the confidence to post this since I was rather embarrassed of my mistake, but wanted to get SOMETHING good from this experience.  I think I will try making the repair for the experience but not be to disappointed if it doesn't come out perfect.  If it doesn't work I will make try stocks out of it and make sure I stain them nice and pretty to remind me in the years to come of what rushing in does.  By the way I did make a full scale drawing and transferred it tot he side of the stock.  I did not put it on the top though.  I will go back and read through the building a chunk gun and pay better attention.

[Captchee]

 I would agree with Mr Getz . We all have had something like this happen  im sure .
 But my question is how did this happen ?
 If you don’t understand the  how , you  will make the mistake again .
 While its very important to  draw a layout  ,   its more important to  understand what you have drawn  so you can properly transfer  it to the  stock  .
 something i have not read anyone mention is  your centerline .

.  I  can see what looks  as  part of a  center line. But its not center of your stock .
 As such ,While your tang is off  a little from that  line, because you didn’t draw the line on the stock correctly , everything you inlet  to it , now is now  at an angle  .
  Now that can be ok if you have enough wood  to compensate .  But in your case you don’t  or didn’t , unless you  narrowed the stock on the right side after you inlet  your parts
 Even your barrel is not inlet to the center  of the stock . The breech end is swept to the right of center
 If you were trying to  put cast off in the stock .  You need to understand that the cast off  is drawn to a degree off the centerline  of the stock ,  starting up on the wrists , just  back of the breech . The barrel and  breech stays inlet to the center line . As does the fist part of the standing breech .  Then the tang is  gradually bent over to match the degree of cast off..
  Your centerline is the key and is your base that you work from 

[wetzel]

I see what you're saying about lines needing to be drawn, though I need some schooling since I was using the barrel as a center line and am still unsure why this is wrong.  Somebody tell my why or if this is bad.  I had somebody inlet the barrel and was using that as a center line, the line on the stock is drawn off of the barrel.  My problem came when I did not draw that line until after I had inlet the tang to see if my eyes were telling me the truth.  Those lines should have been there before and would have raised red flags the minute I laid the barrel and tang in to begin cutting.  I think this is the lesson I need to avoid making this mistake again.  How am I doing guys?

[Fred_Dwyer]

How am I doing

I guess if you are on green side of the grass yet another day, things aren't that terrible .
Cleaning up the curves on that right hand ear of the tang will go a long way to make it look less clunky. Hope you can see the effect of "simulated" filing on the tang.
There's plenty of sacrificial wood around the barrel, find where the sweep of the grain is a good match and finesse in a 3/8x1/4x2 sliver to fill the void.
 Why don't my pictures show? I'll try mail.
    That isn't working either.
        Ohhhh, I hate computers.
           I'm gonna stick to just shootin'.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Nonsense Fred!  Welcome to the site and to this forum. 

My concern with the work so far and a potential repair is that a lot of the wood has been cut away on the lock side.  I can't see where you're going to get a lock panel with what's left.

Filling in the tang inlet after squaring it up, and re-filing the tang to make it symmetrical and centred, is quite possible and worth the effort.  But you need the thickness of the lock plate's bolster in wood all the way back to the end of the lock mortise to create a panel around the lock.  At the very least, you need the thickness of the plate to the bevel.

[wetzel]

Fred, your picture makes it look lots more doable.

[Long John]

Wetzel,

I know its frustrating to be told to shut the barn door AFTER the cows have got out.  But I am with Daryl on this.

I always build from a blank and I let in my own barrels, by hand, because I like too!  So it is possible, I suppose, that the barrel inlet was askew to start and that sent you down a dead-end path.  I don't know where things started going awry.

When I lay out a riflegun the whole gun is built around the barrel.  Let's face it, all we are doing is making a nice handle for a barrel.  I lay the barrel down the center of the stock (unless there is a real compelling reason not to like a knot, bark inclusion, etc).  The bore centerline becomes the gun centerline and I extend that  line down to the butt-end.  I actually make slight saw cuts on the centerline in certain spots so they remain after removing excess wood.  I start the cast-off, for guns that have it,  where the wrist meets the comb.

I think you are wasting your time trying to salvage that stock blank.  You can buy another blank, you can't buy more time.  What you might learn from trying to salvage that stock won't be as valuable as what you learn doing it right.

Best Regards,

JMC

[Dphariss]

How am I doing

I guess if you are on green side of the grass yet another day, things aren't that terrible .
Cleaning up the curves on that right hand ear of the tang will go a long way to make it look less clunky. Hope you can see the effect of "simulated" filing on the tang.
There's plenty of sacrificial wood around the barrel, find where the sweep of the grain is a good match and finesse in a 3/8x1/4x2 sliver to fill the void.
 Why don't my pictures show? I'll try mail.
    That isn't working either.
        Ohhhh, I hate computers.
           I'm gonna stick to just shootin'.

Set up an account at Photobucket.com then find the tutorial on posting here. Once the photos are on photobucket  (or one of the other similar sites) its pretty easy.

Dan

[wetzel]

Well, I am going to try to make the repair.  I know it goes against some of the more experienced builders advice.  I'm doing it for the practice, but at this point I have lots more time than money.  If the stock is a waste anyways it shouldn't hurt to cut a little more.  already I can see some of my mistakes.  The breech plug set was one of those that would fit a 7/8 or a 15/16 barrel, mine is a 7/8 so I had some filing to do.  It is slightly canted and for some reason I couldn't see it earlier.  The tang began asymmetrical but I am going to see what a little filing can do. 

[Fred_Dwyer]

Dph said

Set up an account at Photobucket.com

Yeah, I have one, put the link into the img,/img button above, it didn't show??
Photobucket was s'pose to be able to mail it for me too??

D Taylor said

Nonsense

What, I should tell him he's better off 10 foot under??
 The man said, and the pix seemed to show, the lock was successfully inlet.

Why the barrel was laid out like that would only be a guess. To save hogging out a lot of wood on the one side? but that would just put more hogging out on the other. dunno.

[James]

Fred, I can't speak for Taylor, but my interpretation of what he meant was when you said "Why don't my pictures show? I'll try mail. That isn't working either  Ohhhh, I hate computers. I'm gonna stick to just shootin'." He said nonsense about not contributing here and just going back to shooting. Taylor is a good egg, and I just hate seeing these misunderstandings develop over nothing. Welcome to the forum. James

[Fred_Dwyer]

I just hate seeing these misunderstandings develop over nothing.

Well if it weren't over nuthin it wouldn't be a misunderstanding now would it! HA

And what's so bad about shootin? If it wasn't for 40+ years of shootin these bean-butt-smelling beasts I wouldn't be here.

[Herb]

If you are going to try a repair, here is another option.  I'd slab off the off side of the stock and glue it onto the lock side to make the panel thick enough.  There are original rifles that have had slabs glued onto the panels.  The wood and even grain will match very closely, and stain the same.  You only have to cut the panel about six inches long.  Plane or sand it smooth and just move it from the off side to the lock side, not switching it end for end, to match the grain.  Looks like you have enough wood ahead of the panel for the forearm.

[Fred_Dwyer]

Today Photobucket seems to be working.


Things come to me in my sleep. You could lay in a contrasting wood surround to cover the re-try for inletting the tang. Then you can say it is just to fancy it up a bit. Just don't cut the existing wood at the breach end thinner, that needs the solid wood to take the load of the recoil.

[Gaeckle]

I'm with Taylor, Don and the host of others who have suggested that you start over with a fresh chunk of wood. Say to yourself: "It's just a piece of wood, just a piece of wood....

Start over, stop worrying about it, we've all made errors like this (and others). You'll be happier about it, no more tossing and turning.

Hang onto the old stock, use it for something else.

[Dphariss]

Today Photobucket seems to be working.


Things come to me in my sleep. You could lay in a contrasting wood surround to cover the re-try for inletting the tang. Then you can say it is just to fancy it up a bit. Just don't cut the existing wood at the breach end thinner, that needs the solid wood to take the load of the recoil.

Yes its possible to do all sorts of repairs. But unless you are replacing the wood you took out its going to show.
It takes a great deal of skill in choosing the wood for the patch assuming there is a enough suitable wood to pick through. Where does the replacement wood come from? How much will this cost in time and dollars?
Theoretically its possible to replace the tang inlet with a piece of maple with matching grain flow and direction, tattoo in curl and get a close match. If he had the slab removed for inletting the barrel it would be a good place to find wood. But it will not be a close enough match due to grain flow in the wrist. Its possible to spend hours if not days just looking at grin flow and how both pieces look when stained and oiled (this BEFORE the actual repair is started).  Its not something to do to save a blank.

Restoring an original rifle is a different proposition.

If ebony or walnut or any other contrasting wood is used then a large area of wood must be removed to put in the "plug". For this the inlet for the new piece must be very good so that goofs made in the deeper parts of the inlet do not show as a glob of glue when the stock is contoured. It also needs to perfectly aligned with the finished contours of the stock. Then the tang has to be corrected and inlet.
I see it as a colossal waist of energy better spent on a new stock blank.

I know a lot of "fixes" and have used most of them. But when the mistake gets too big its a waste of time to continue.  Its always going to show and the maker is going to have to look at it for a long time.

Sometimes one simply has to bite the bullet and recycle the stock with the mistake and start anew.  Consdering it a learning experience.
Since its uncontoured it may be possible to get a pistol stock from the buttstock.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

This is a good example why it is a good idea for a beginner to use a cheap, plain piece of wood.  These can sometimes be had for around $50 or so.  I've used several reject or flawed pieces from Dunlap for prices in the range of $30.  If you mess up on a piece like this, you're not out much.  With care in finishing, a plainer piece of wood can be made to look just fine.  I sometimes prefer the look of wood without much curl.

[wetzel]

Once again you guys are right.  I spent a few hours yesterday wrestling with the tang.  I'm convinced I need a new tang now, I filed and bent, but it still looks wrong.  Dan that is a good point about a pistol stock possibly coming from the butt section.  I am going to order a new tang and make one last try at salvaging the stock, although its probably hopeless.  But again it comes down to a matter of having more time than money.

[Captchee]

 Ok  . First let me say , im sorry I was at a shoot for the last 4 days . that’s why I didn’t get back to you .
 So let me explain what I was getting at .
  Your center line is the center of the stock .  So lets say you stock width is   2 1/4  wide . Your center line is then 1 1/8 / this line runs from  what will be the muzzle end , all the way down  to the butt, down to the toe, and back to the muzzle end .
 Your barrel  width is then divided in ½  so that its center line , sets to the stocks center line . IE  half your barrel will be on each side of the center line .
 With your stock , it looks like whom ever you sent it to  inlet it at an angle  OR drew your centerline at an angle” for what ever reason “ and   thinking you had enough wood ..
 So basically the barrel was inlet to an angle , not true to the center of your stock .
 As a result   drawing that centerline on the stock , after the fact , using the barrel to  mark center  , only dug you a deeper hole .
 The only other way , I can see that happening was if the plank was a lot wider to start with .
 The person who inlet your barrel  dew the centerline  at an angle so as to miss as much of the worm  stain  in the wrist as was possible.  Then  for some reason the stock got  planed down   without  consideration for the barrel being at an angle

Either way , IMO you have no wood left for the lock mortise.  Nor  really enough wood to form your wrist . Bending or moving the tang  isn’t going to give you that wood  .
 My advice to you is the same as the others here . IE start over .

[wetzel]

I think you're right Captchee:(  I needed to draw my center lines to begin with, then I would have seen what you mentioned.  It was me that planed it down, thus digging this stocks grave.  Any recommendations on who to hit up for a new stock?  I think I can get a fairly plain pre-shaped one from pecatonical river, but am trying to get away from the precarves, maybe I'm not ready yet.  Do you know who sells not to fancy blanks for a decent price?  I guess dave Keck is the guy to have the barrel inletted.

[Dphariss]

I think you're right Captchee:(  I needed to draw my center lines to begin with, then I would have seen what you mentioned.  It was me that planed it down, thus digging this stocks grave.  Any recommendations on who to hit up for a new stock?  I think I can get a fairly plain pre-shaped one from pecatonical river, but am trying to get away from the precarves, maybe I'm not ready yet.  Do you know who sells not to fancy blanks for a decent price?  I guess dave Keck is the guy to have the barrel inletted.

Dunlap
http://www.dunlapwoodcrafts.com/Gunstocks.php

There are others as well.

Dan

[Ed Wenger]

I agree with Dan, Wayne and Daniel are great folks to work with.  I don't live far from them and get up there fairly often.  If you want, I can dig through a couple of blank piles for you and get what you want...  Send me a PM if interested.

      Ed