Author Topic: Swamped barrels (Read 9260 times)

Old Ford2 · « **on:** April 22, 2011, 03:28:24 PM »

I just received a great .40 cal Green Mountain barrel 1 1/8 X 36"
Great barrel....way too heavy!
I wish to swamp the barrel on a milling machine.
I don't see any problems in the milling process, and establishing the taper, BUT, where to start the taper ( how far from the breech, and how close to the muzzle )
Any guidance would be much appreciated.
I have only held a swamped barrel, many years ago.
The .40 cal. barrel is great, but like as written, waaaay too heavy.
HELP!
Old Ford

mjm46@bellsouth.net · « **Reply #1 on:** April 22, 2011, 04:02:41 PM »

On all the swamped barrels I've seen, the taper starts at the breech, tapers to the waist, which as I see it, can change as to where and how much, and then tapers back to the muzzle. The breech being the greatest dimension. The only more or less straight part is the waist and that only for an inch or 2. Just my observation I'm sure others may dispute this.

rudyc · « **Reply #2 on:** April 22, 2011, 04:12:53 PM »

Track of the Wolf and Buckeye Barrels both have the dimensions of some of the barrels they sell on their sites, maybe that will help.

rudyc

keweenaw · « **Reply #3 on:** April 22, 2011, 04:22:41 PM »

This is actually harder to do than it seems at first unless you have a mill with a long table and a dividing head you can put on it as it's pretty difficult to set the barrel in the vice to get exactly the same amount of taper on each flat. But in any case the taper should start right at the breech, proceed to about 10" from the muzzle. You should then have a 4 or 5" straight section and flare back out for 5 or 6". With that short of a barrel and that large of a breech diameter you won't want to go hog wild on the swamp as it could look pretty weird.

If I had just bought that barrel, I would send it back and order the swamped one.

Tom

smylee grouch · « **Reply #4 on:** April 22, 2011, 04:39:02 PM »

The way I understand it, people have had mixed results tappering or swamping a barrel after it has been rifled. I was told that it puts too much stress on the barrel and you have, acording to one fellow, a 50/50 chance of getting a good/bad barrel. Some other members of this forum with more knowledge of these things should check in here and maybe confirm or dispute this. Good luck which ever way you go. Smylee

Bentflint · « **Reply #5 on:** April 22, 2011, 04:50:13 PM »

I contour pistol barrels but have never done a rifle barrel. I use V-blocks mounted on wedge plates to hold the blank in the mill. Three set ups and cuts on each flat. Draw filed finish. You really have to think this before you start and keep in mind, the more you remove from the barrel the more it will flex. This is milling 10" barrels.

For about $200 you can buy a GM or Rice and have no problems.

Bruce Everhart

Swampwalker · « **Reply #6 on:** April 22, 2011, 05:12:47 PM »

Old Ford, no matter how you do it, removing an 1/8" or more per flat from a barrel and getting it even is lots of work. Plus, there is the real possibility of warping the barrel (this was discussed on previous threads). GM sells a transitional swamped barrel which is only 2" longer for what, another $40! But if you're fitting to a specific contour not available, perhaps it's worth the effort.

Gaeckle · « **Reply #7 on:** April 22, 2011, 05:30:21 PM »

You basically have the beginings of a halfstock rifle, or a plains rifle. If you do it right you can make a nifty well balanced great shooting rifle that will make you the envy of local ranges.

I have four old barrels that are one inch or better that are 30 caliber, 32, 34 and an original rifle with a 1 1/4 inch barrel that is a 34. It holds well and shoots good. Despite the small caliber size in a large barrel, the gun is well balanced and I use it as a guide for when I make a heavy barreled halfstock. I also notice that most often these barrels are between 32 and 33 inches long, but those leangths are for the barrels I own.

I would not try to alter that barrel......sell it and get one that is swamped to your liking.

Kermit · « **Reply #8 on:** April 22, 2011, 05:56:51 PM »

Sounds like you need to return or sell it and get what you want. Cut your losses and don't take the risk. $:-\$

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #9 on:** April 22, 2011, 07:29:00 PM »

Old Ford2: Are you trying to replicate an old original gun? Most contemporary makers do not realize that old original gun barrels were made a lot heavier than that average muzzle loading barrel being made today. I have a number of original longrifles in my collection - all of which have had their barrels removed and weighed. The average weight per barrel is : 8 & 1/2lbs! The shortest barrel is on a halfstock which measures: 34 " and it weighs just over 9 lbs. and no it is not a "chunk gun". I think that we have become too modernized from handling and shooting modern center fire guns - then we want to impose those features
on our recreation of the longrifle. Just something to think about, Hugh Toenjes

northmn · « **Reply #10 on:** April 22, 2011, 08:17:28 PM »

Another option would be to store it for a bit or build a chunk gun with it. I would also consider reboring it to a larger caliber. I have a tapered barrel that was done in a machine shop. One flat is slightly off due to the problems some of the machinists mentioned above.

DP

T*O*F · « **Reply #11 on:** April 22, 2011, 09:14:28 PM »

IF you really want to give it a whirl, fake it. Just do the top five flats and leave the three bottom ones straight. You will still get the desired effect appearance wise.

Jim Curlee · « **Reply #12 on:** April 22, 2011, 09:16:39 PM »

Fred;
I am definitely not an expert, so my advice probably sucks but here goes.
I sent a barrel about that same size to Bob Hoyt out in Pennsylvania, to have tapered.
He was swamping a bunch of barrels last week, and tapering some this week.
I'm thinking that if it wouldn't work, Bob wouldn't have work swamping, and tapering barrels?
Offhand, guy's do you think they tapered, or swamped barrels before drilling the bore?
I know that none of this means that a barrel won't warp.
Jim

Old Ford2 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 22, 2011, 11:15:01 PM »

Thank you all for your valued suggestions.
I believe I will stick with the 1 1/8" barrel as it is.
I know I can mill the flats, but the risk of having it warp.
I had no particular rifle design, but had the wish to take a stab at a swamped barrel.
I already have a H & A underhammer in .40 cal., so one more side lock would be nice.
All the best
Old Ford

bgf · « **Reply #14 on:** April 23, 2011, 01:05:11 AM »

That would be a pretty desirable barrel for target rifles -- if you don't like it, someone should snap it up pretty quickly. I was tempted to offer, but I still haven't decided between .40 or sticking with .50.

Dphariss · « **Reply #15 on:** April 23, 2011, 01:10:02 AM »

Use a sharp cutter, moderate cuts and flood coolant with water soluble oil and it will likely be OK. But its a lot of work.
GMs swamps are easy to straighten don't know about the straights. Don't ask how I know this.

Blacksmoke may be correct about the modern barrel contours. I also get a feeling that modern swamp profiles are a little extreme. I also note that later guns got heavier in the barrel. There are theories about this too. Different materials after early 19th century and better powders by the 1800 or so.
I think the C weight barrel is probably closer to the original profiles at least so far as total rifle weight in 50 caliber goes.
Someone needs to do a study of original rifle barrel exterior dimensions.
Just put masking tape on the vernier jaws

Dan

Dave Faletti · « **Reply #16 on:** April 23, 2011, 04:21:04 AM »

GM is no longer making that barrel as I understand it, so consider not risking messing it up. Were you considering the heavier weight swamps? They don't make anything other than the A weight in 40. Their current selection of heavier weights in smaller calibers isn't there. At least when they get to making some.

That would be a nice weight for a chunk gun.

Dphariss · « **Reply #17 on:** April 23, 2011, 05:23:26 AM »

Quote from: Dave Faletti on April 23, 2011, 04:21:04 AM

GM is no longer making that barrel as I understand it, so consider not risking messing it up. Were you considering the heavier weight swamps? They don't make anything other than the A weight in 40. Their current selection of heavier weights in smaller calibers isn't there. At least when they get to making some. That would be a nice weight for a chunk gun.

They have some contracts the have to complete.
SFAIK they intend to stay in the ML market but the contract has to be done.
Tip Curtis in Cross Plains TN usually has a pretty good selection of GM barrels. Don't have his phone number but its on the NMLRA Muzzle Blasts web page or was.

Dan

Don Getz · « **Reply #18 on:** April 23, 2011, 05:40:19 AM »

Old Ford........I think it was a wise decision to not try to swamp that barrel. You would be opening a can of worms that
you would be very unhappy with. I wouldn't even want to try that in our "barrel" shop.......that isn't the way to start to
make a swamped barrel...............Don

JDK · « **Reply #19 on:** April 23, 2011, 06:04:31 AM »

Quote from: Dave Faletti on April 23, 2011, 04:21:04 AM

GM is no longer making that barrel as I understand it, so consider not risking messing it up. Were you considering the heavier weight swamps? They don't make anything other than the A weight in 40. Their current selection of heavier weights in smaller calibers isn't there. At least when they get to making some. That would be a nice weight for a chunk gun.

I was just on Green Mountains site and they still list the 40cal. 36" in 1 1/8" for $130....item number 184036. In fact it is the only barrel they have listed in 1 1/8" right now. J.D.K.

Dave Faletti · « **Reply #20 on:** April 23, 2011, 09:48:23 AM »

Green Mountain doesn't list any 1&1/8 straight barrels in their 2011 catalog though it doesn't mean they and others don't have ones in stock. I am just relaying info they gave me as far as whats a current product for them. The reality is it doesn't matter all that much what they made or intend to make. What you can get your hands on is what counts.

Jim Curlee · « **Reply #21 on:** April 23, 2011, 02:50:29 PM »

Don;
So what are the proper steps involved, in making a swamped barrel?
How about tapered, or octagon to round?
I just figured that most guys would bore, and ream the hole, then taper, or swamp using the bore of the gun. In my mind this would center the bore with the outside of the barrel?
Am I throwing away a good barrel, by having it tapered after the fact?
Thanks
Jim

Don Getz · « **Reply #22 on:** April 23, 2011, 04:59:58 PM »

Jim..........we start to make a barrel using round stock. We first drill the proper size hole, for a given calibre, then place
the blank in our lathe, on centers, and turn the whole blank concentric with the bore. At this time we also remove metal
in somewhat a "swamped" configuration........no tapers, but is stepped down in size to the small part and then back up
to the flair at the muzzle, in accordance with drawings that we make for each style of barrel. The barrel is turned to where it is about .125 bigger than the finished octagon size, so we are basically milling only about .063 off of each flat.
The blank is locked into a tracer mill and is milled one flat at a time. We always spin the barrel 180 degrees after each
flat is milled, and make sure it returns to the same position, by usiing a dial indicator, to eliminate the problem of warping.
Takes about 2 hours to mill a 42"barrel. After milling, the bore is reamed up to proper size, then rifled. When we first
started in the barrel business we were taught to drill, ream, and rifles the blank first, however, we found that when you
do it this way, and by the time you have turned and milled the outside shape to the barrel, many times it would relieve
stresses in the steel and you would end up with a bore that looked like it had reamr rings from one end to the other.
Oh, the joys of learning......costly too...........Don

Glenn · « **Reply #23 on:** April 23, 2011, 06:46:30 PM »

What grade of steel do Yall use for the barrels, if I may ask?

Two reasons I ask;

I've had more than one person tell me that 1" re-bar is close to the same grade/hardness currently being used for modern muzzleloading barrels (I'm sure Yall can tell I don't know anything about all this).

I've always wondered how to determine what the grade of steel is of any given piece when you have it in front of you without any markings on it ...

Don Getz · « **Reply #24 on:** April 23, 2011, 08:22:48 PM »

GRA.......we have almost always used 12L14 steel. Works great, and, after nearly 30,000 barrels and no problems, I
guess it's safe to use..............Don

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Author Topic: Swamped barrels (Read 9260 times)

mjm46@bellsouth.net

keweenaw

Bentflint

northmn

Dave Faletti

Dave Faletti