Whittling/drilling new butt-stock

[Fred_Dwyer]

I have one of these to repair:

It has a crack starting in the wrist. The screw angles up through the butt, pretty much in a path that follows the line in the pix between the light grain to dark grain. That seems to be a tricky hole to drill and keep on a true path.
Is the approach to predrill the wood, then mount it and whittle the butt to shape and avoid all the cussin that happens when a hole breaks through?

[ol vern]

that's the way I would do it.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I drill the stock blank between centres on my lathe, and they always come out perfectly on line.  Then I inlet the wrist into the receiver and then shape the rest of the butt.

[Fred_Dwyer]

I drill the stock blank between centres on my lathe,

Silly me, horse-traded my lathe away for a band-saw. Otherwise I'd just make a nice brass collar to drive over the crack and reinforce it. That would have been easier, with less whittling.

[Kermit]

Taylor, tell us about the drill bits you use, please.

[Lucky R A]

     Unless you really want a project, why don't you just use some good acraglass epoxy and glue up the crack.  Stain the glue to match the stock, and then refinish.  I have glued a number of wrist that were snapped completely off, and they are still going good. 

[Fred_Dwyer]

I've never had much faith in glue. But your saying it should hold up fine?

[Dphariss]

The location and angle of the hole is important.
If the angle is wrong the whole project can be messed up.
Draw it all out on the blank before drilling.
Where the action will be and at what angle it meets the wood and then layout where the hole will be and the angle it must have to properly align with the action.
I use a gun drill for this clamping the blank to a flat surface and then using two drilled blocks about 8-12" apart to position the drill and assure that it will be the proper height and run to a point set in another block at the far end. I then clamp the blank in place so that the point is at the mark I have made for the drills exit and the drill starts at the mark I have laid out at the other end of the blank. The two blocks prevent any misalignment if care is used in the drllling.
Takes some time and a lot of chip clearing but this set up will produce a perfect hole if a gun drill is used.


Dan

[Lucky R A]

Fred,  Look at it this way, you can try the glue, and if the result is unsatisfactory. you are right where you are now.  If it works which it should you have save a whole lot of work, and can do something a lot more satisfying...

[Dphariss]

I've never had much faith in glue. But your saying it should hold up fine?

If the wood is clean Titebond or Elmers Carpenter glue will make an unbreakable bond in the wood. The wood will break as some point other than the joint.
But the wood must be clean, glued and then clamped. Get plenty of glue in the joint then wrap with surgical tubing to clamp.
Wax areas that you don't want glue stuck to like the exterior.
If the joint is oily clean with a lot of acetone. Use chemical stripper gloves to keep it off our hands. This stuff will dissolve some plastics.
A GOOD epoxy can be carefully tinted and will work OK but is weaker on wood than the glues above. I would use Brownells Acra-glas gel. Hobby store epoxy is junk IMO. J_B Weld is good but the wrong color.

You could try calling Numrich about a replacement stock.
Our sales department can be reached M-F 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time Zone

TOLL-FREE ORDER LINE: 866-NUMRICH (866-686-7424)

OUTSIDE OF THE U.S.: (845)679-2417
Dan

[38_Cal]

Got to jump in on this one, Dan.  Acraglas Gel is excellent for bedding jobs, where there are gaps to fill, but as a glue, the regular Acraglas is much better, by abut a factor of three to one.  This is an area I know...I worked for Brownells for twenty years, in their Tech department, until I was downsized. 

Getting back to the question on drilling stocks, Fred, do you have a floor mount drill press?  If so, you can use a long spur point drill bit in it lined up with a center point clamped into a drill press vise on the table, drill part way through the stock blank, turn it over and drill the rest of the way with the other sized drill.  Essentially, you're drilling between centers, same as you would do in a lathe, but you are doing it vertically rather than horizontally.  Mark out and center punch both hole starting locations first, and make very sure that your drill bit is straight.  Equally important is to make sure that the center point in the vise is in alignment with the drill.

David

[Kermit]

Still curious. What's a "gun drill?"

[Stophel]

I've never had much faith in glue. But your saying it should hold up fine?

If the wood is clean Titebond or Elmers Carpenter glue will make an unbreakable bond in the wood. The wood will break as some point other than the joint.
But the wood must be clean, glued and then clamped. Get plenty of glue in the joint then wrap with surgical tubing to clamp.
Wax areas that you don't want glue stuck to like the exterior.
If the joint is oily clean with a lot of acetone. Use chemical stripper gloves to keep it off our hands. This stuff will dissolve some plastics.
A GOOD epoxy can be carefully tinted and will work OK but is weaker on wood than the glues above. I would use Brownells Acra-glas gel. Hobby store epoxy is junk IMO. J_B Weld is good but the wrong color.

You could try calling Numrich about a replacement stock.
Our sales department can be reached M-F 8:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m. Eastern Time Zone

TOLL-FREE ORDER LINE: 866-NUMRICH (866-686-7424)

OUTSIDE OF THE U.S.: (845)679-2417
Dan

I don't like epoxy for wood myself, either.  I have had VERY bad results with epoxy, of all kinds, and I've pretty much tried them all.  They simply do NOT hold onto wood very well at all...assuming they even set up properly....  I simply refuse to use epoxy for anything at all now.

If the wood is clean (though I can imagine that there's oil soaked into the grain there...  ) an aliphatic glue will make a super strong bond, as Dan said.  I use Titebond II or III, which are billed as water repellent and waterproof, respectively.

[doug]

     an alternate way is to make up a drilling jig and an extended drill .  The photos below are how I drilled the hole for the magazine of a Spencer rifle (cartridge).  The hole is roughly 1" diameter and runs diagonally through the stock (side to side).  I mounted the wood in the jig with a pointed center in the back where I wanted the hole to come out and a shallow hole in the front or wrist area where I wanted it to start.  What you cannot see in the photos is that I had two small wood screws traveling forward into the butt which allowed me to drill most of the way then take the wood out and removed the pointed center and replace the wood exactly where it was originally. 

     I started with a 3/8 pilot hole, useing a 4 foot extenstion.   It came out within 1/16" of where I wanted it.  The point on the drill should not be ground too long or it is more likely to wander

cheers Doug

[Dphariss]

Got to jump in on this one, Dan.  Acraglas Gel is excellent for bedding jobs, where there are gaps to fill, but as a glue, the regular Acraglas is much better, by abut a factor of three to one.  This is an area I know...I worked for Brownells for twenty years, in their Tech department, until I was downsized. 

Getting back to the question on drilling stocks, Fred, do you have a floor mount drill press?  If so, you can use a long spur point drill bit in it lined up with a center point clamped into a drill press vise on the table, drill part way through the stock blank, turn it over and drill the rest of the way with the other sized drill.  Essentially, you're drilling between centers, same as you would do in a lathe, but you are doing it vertically rather than horizontally.  Mark out and center punch both hole starting locations first, and make very sure that your drill bit is straight.  Equally important is to make sure that the center point in the vise is in alignment with the drill.

David

I have no doubt that the runny acra-glas  is better on wood. But it don't fill as well. If I don't need fill I use the tight bond glues, they are better than epoxy in the testing I have seen .

Brad and spur point drills don't cut straight in deep holes.
In wood expecially a twist drill or a drill with a small shaft will be unlikely to cut a straight hole.

Dan

[whitebear]

doug if most of the tools didn't look newer than mine and more of them I would swear that you are using my junky bench.  Doug

[Bennypapa]

Still curious. What's a "gun drill?"

A "gun drill" refers to a specially shaped drill bit meant for drilling long straight holes. Unlike a common twist drill which ideally cuts on both flutes at the tip, the gun drill has only one flute and cutting edge. It can be made to drill very straight, long holes as long as you can overcome the chip clearing issue. In metal working a flood coolant is usually passed through the hollow shank of the stationary drill bit and washes out the chips while cooling the bit and workpiece. I suppose you could use air for coolant and chip clearing when drilling wood.

Look at this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_drill

[dannybb55]

It seems that some of you folks don't use epoxy correctly. I use gallons of the stuff at work and the only thing that is hard to stick is Teak. We use West epoxy, which is 5 to one and most of the time we thicken it with Garamite. AcraGlas sounds like a 1 to 1 epoxy, does it not stick to wood too?
                                              Ddanny

[Fred_Dwyer]

My computer mouse went wonky and finally I am back.
A few new additional good ideas to ponder have been posted, thanks.

For the drill bit I have a can of assorted bits that have been used and abused. For this job I could sharpen one good enough to cut wood and blunt the flutes and keep the tip sharp, figuring the blunt flute edges will help resist wandering. I'll see if I can find a pix of a gun drill and get as close to that as I can......or if Numrich actually has a new one, but though I searched everywhere on the web.

This gun is really a good shooter. Anywhere between 35 grains to 110 grains it tosses out a good group. 120 grain starts to get a little wild, only needed to shoot 3 rounds at 120 to see that is a waste of powder. At 35 g you can play connect the dots all day.

[Dphariss]

It seems that some of you folks don't use epoxy correctly. I use gallons of the stuff at work and the only thing that is hard to stick is Teak. We use West epoxy, which is 5 to one and most of the time we thicken it with Garamite. AcraGlas sounds like a 1 to 1 epoxy, does it not stick to wood too?
                                              Ddanny

Its not a matter of "stick".
Its a matter of strength.
Dedicated wood glues work better on wood. They are as strong and often stronger and they are not as brittle as epoxies.
Epoxy is wonderful stuff. But its not the best answer for everything, at least in wood working.
AND
It depends on what the glue is used for. A friend related that a test of glues for bows proved that Knox Gelatine was best in this context if properly mixed and dried.
If you dig through the WWW by searching "wood glue testing" there is some information.


Dan

[Stophel]

It seems that some of you folks don't use epoxy correctly. I use gallons of the stuff at work and the only thing that is hard to stick is Teak. We use West epoxy, which is 5 to one and most of the time we thicken it with Garamite. AcraGlas sounds like a 1 to 1 epoxy, does it not stick to wood too?
                                              Ddanny

While I've never had need for using gallon size amounts of epoxy, and never used West epoxy, I simply have had almost zero success with any of it.  Acraglas gets very brittle, doesn't hold wood well, and flakes off.  Microbed (which I don't think they make anymore) rarely set up properly, staying tacky, etc.  Brownell's Steel Bed doesn't stick to wood hardly at all!

The only epoxy I have ever tried that ever got close to consistently decent results is J B Weld. It sets up properly, without getting too brittle or staying too soft.  It still doesn't hold wood very well, though.  Works great on steel!  Not so great on wood, but ok.

Other people might be able to get it to work, but I sure can't.  And if I can't get it to work reliably, I'm not going to use it.

I just can't find any reason to even try it anymore.  Whatever I need to fix, I can fix trouble free with Titebond.

I need to learn to use hide glue...

Oh, and the thin Acraglas is a 4 to 1 mix....and they send two parts of one, and one part of the other in a box......  

 

[doug]

doug if most of the tools didn't look newer than mine and more of them I would swear that you are using my junky bench.  Doug

     I was quite proud of myself for having cleaned it up :>)  :>)     A tidy workbench is the sign of a disturbed mind  :>)  :>)

cheers Doug

[doug]

For this job I could sharpen one good enough to cut wood and blunt the flutes and keep the tip sharp, figuring the blunt flute edges will help resist wandering.

    I believe what makes a drill wander, particularly in wood is a long sharp point .  I would not alter the side of the flutes.  I think that if a drill with a long point hits a hard spot it takes relatively little to divert it sideways (or up or down) and start to veer off course.  If the point approaches square across (like an end mill) it is less inclined to be easily diverted.  I am not suggesting to grind the point completely square but rather to avoid the opposite extreme of having it look like a pencil point

cheers Doug

[Far Atwill]

You should have no problem gluing that crack, weather you use Elmers or (my favorite) Acra glass gel from Brownells.  Here's one I did 3 yr4s. ago with acra glass gel, not a muzzle loader but it's wood and I've done at least 50 or so and never had one come apart, also done self bows and underwater speer guns,
no problems.
after
before
F.A.

This was a Parker Hale M98 .22-250 that someone fired a 7.62 x 39 in, no one was hurt.  Wouldn't have fired except for the controlled round feed.

[Fred_Dwyer]

HOLY BATSTUFF!  I am stunned the receiver is intact.

OK, I'm convinced; try the glue first.
With the current economic atmosphere $5 for glue is better that the cost of the wood + drill. Since I lost track of the 03-A3 stock that was going to be the source wood.

I had found some pix of gun drills and they look eerily like good old-fashioned spoon bits; something I could manage to fabricate. Then priced out some steel tubing stock. GLUE WINS!

Thanks everyone for the feedback and suggestions.