The Golden Mean

[Stophel]

I don't discount it entirely.  It is the most attractive division for many things, but the point is that you should be able to arrive at it naturally by eye (assuming any kind of artistic ability.  If you don't have it, rulers and dividers aren't going to transform you into a Rembrandt.).  Adhering to this magic ratio for everything won't get you an attractive gun.  In many cases, the ratio is simply impossible.  In many cases, it is UNattractive.

I have never even attempted to use the "golden mean" on any of my guns.  I'm sure that somewhere on them you can probably find a 3:5 ratio for something.

And my guns are among the most beautiful I've ever seen. 

[JTR]

Well I hate to be disagreeable to the naysayers, but it does fit.
As I mentioned earlier, I measured several of my rifles with varying stock designs, and most fit quite well.
Now it’s many a moon since I did this, but I don’t believe it was used by picking one point on the rifle and measuring from there, and having all pertinent points fall in the 3 to 5 ratio. More like doing the ratio from the breech to the nose of the comb, then from there, the cheek piece placement could be found using the 3 to 5 ratio,,, or something like that.
I also remember that it wasn’t just a simple exercise that any bumpkin that rolled off a stump might do, although, well, I did it!
And true, even if it does work it won’t make you a J P Beck,,, you still need the hand or the artist. But it’ll likely show you where to put the ckeek piece, then you just need to make it look like Becks.
John

[Acer Saccharum]

I am open to seeing material that is factual about the use of the GM. Until then, this is really an opinion contest. I admit it, I am right in the thick of it.

Thank you J Cholin for the discourse on Greek and Roman history, and the origins of the Golden Mean.

Acer

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

In SOOO many places, the 3:5 ratio is simply impossible, and in other places, it DOESN'T look right!  An octagon to round barrel with a 3:5 division gives you a barrel with a really long octagon section (a 48" long barrel would have an octagon of 18"...a 42" barrel would have a 15 3/4" octagon...a might long, I think).

If you have a 50 inch barrel on a fowler and you place the entry pipe using the golden mean for location the entry pipe will be 19 - 20 inches up the barrel from the breech. Looks like $#@*. Definitely not a place to use the golden mean. There are also other places on rifles and fowlers where the golden mean just doesn't work.

Randy Hedden

That wouldn't be how you would locate the entry pipe and I don't think I said that anyway. The entry pipe locates the same as the tigger pull. The proportion on the barrel is simply a beauty guide to assist in an aesthetic location for the wedding band. I'm sorry you guys are so touchy about this, and my research has been on originals as well as pictures. Whatever. I thought this was an open forum to teaching. Gunmaking is half art and half mechanical and that can't be ignored.
Sorry to offend. I'm done.
Susie

[JTR]

And my guns are among the most beautiful I've ever seen. 

  I don't think your guns are as beautiful as my unbelievably gorgeous Dickert rifle!

And I hope that no one gets they're feeling hurt over this Golden Mean thing.

If I was home, which I'm not, I'd do some measuring and post the pics to prove it!
Joihn

[gregorit]

I also hope that no one gets offended with this thread.  I have found the discussion to be quite interesting.  I have learned a lot from it.  Thank you all for the information that comes through this site, it is a great resource for people like myself who are just learning. 

[Karl Kunkel]

I think everyone here are big boys and girls, and no one's feathers will get too ruffled.  As said on another thread . . . we can agree to disagree.  I picked up  copies of Hallam's "Seeing Through the Eyes of Yesteryear" and the KRA Red Book at Dixon's this year.  My jury is still out on the subject, so I am enjoying the discourse.

[Randy Hedden]

That wouldn't be how you would locate the entry pipe and I don't think I said that anyway. The entry pipe locates the same as the tigger pull. The proportion on the barrel is simply a beauty guide to assist in an aesthetic location for the wedding band. I'm sorry you guys are so touchy about this, and my research has been on originals as well as pictures. Whatever. I thought this was an open forum to teaching. Gunmaking is half art and half mechanical and that can't be ignored.
Sorry to offend. I'm done.
Susie

Susie,

I don't think that you have offended anyone and least of all me. This forum is a forum for discussion and that is what we have been doing on this subject of the golden mean. I don't think anyone here is touchy about the subject, but we are all entitled to have an opinion, yay or nay, about believing in the use of the golden mean as a tool in building rifles.

Randy Hedden

www.harddogrifles.com

[Acer Saccharum]

I am not offended.

But I am off camping for a couple of days, so I will have to come back to this next week.

Acer

[woodsrunner]

I didn't know about Hallam's book, but I'll certainly get a copy right away. I assume ordering it from Sue Hallam, Shiloh, Ohio is the way to go....that's the only info that I could find on the books availability. The KRA Red Book that you mentioned: is that the KRA's "Selected KRA Bulletin Articles" published in 2005, or another KRA publication?

This topic is an excellent learning opportunity IMO, and I don't think anyone who uses their heads to think will get upset at other's views and opinions. In fact I think our discussion is an excellent example of something Plato pointed out way back in 427BC.

Plato said that man went through four distinct phases in developing his intellect. At first he was in a state of total "Ignorance", and didn't even know that there was anything to know! The second phase was that of "Opinion", and this could be broken down into two subcatagories, right opinion and wrong opinion. Next up the line in development was"Reason", and here a man would realize that it was necessary, through education and study, especially in mind-sharpening subjects such as mathematics...the old 1.6180339887 Golden Mean kinda thing...to progress to the next level ie "Intelligence"!

In reading the posts that have been made on the Golden Mean, I have SOMEHOW formed the opinion-right or wrong-that some of us are hung up in the early "Opinion" phase while most have advanced to the "Reason" phase, and one or two, as was Patrick Hallam, have reached the "Intelligence" stage! Usually,IMO, those among us who attempt to educate the unknowing have achieved the "Intelligence" phase!

[California Kid]

Woodsrunner there are a lot of intelligent people here, whoops or is that their stage?
Lots of people including myself have read the book and many other sources. There is also that 30 years of gun building experience as well, for me and lots of other people here on this board. We are all still learning,
learning something with every build. I think the irritating thing , at least to me is someone selling their dividers, a class,etc., etc. etc..
Acer is right though, I want to see proof as well. I've never seen any proportional dividers listed in any books or in actual inventories. I've seen a lot of them and did a lot of research when I lived in Pa.
I can't see Jacob Dickert using Golden Mean dividers, trying to fulfill his govt. contracts. It's experience and the way he was taught as an apprentice.
Oh, I forgot the guilds in Europe, I guess the head Homie had a set in his pocket to check all the members work with or they wouldn't get their journeyman papers.
Wood, I'm not picking on you , you just got me started on this dissertation as you were the last poster.

[Paddlefoot]

Another good source for anyone wanting to see how the old masters really put together a design is Chippendales book on furniture design. Not sure of the exact title but you can probably Google him and find it. Interesting thing about him was that he wasn't actually a woodworker and some of his designs really don't take into account things like grain direction or wood expansion. Lots of Chippendale furniture is a nightmare to keep in one piece. The artwork is good though.

[jerrywh]

   An Engraver I know just recently sold a gun for about $100,000. If he only would have known about the golden means he could have made some real money. I wonder if Plato had a computor. How many guns did Plato make anyway?

[Evil Monkey]

I think the irritating thing , at least to me is someone selling their dividers, a class,etc., etc. etc..

There may be members here that would be interested in a set of dividers and/or classes but didn't know such things existed. If someone that offers such things DIDN'T say so, they would be doing themselves as well as the other members a dis-service.

I want to see proof as well.

I doubt that.

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

I think the irritating thing , at least to me is someone selling their dividers, a class,etc., etc. etc..

There may be members here that would be interested in a set of dividers and/or classes but didn't know such things existed. If someone that offers such things DIDN'T say so, they would be doing themselves as well as the other members a dis-service.

I want to see proof as well.

I doubt that.

Thank you for that. It wasn't meant to try to sell anyone anything. Its meant for education which is the focus of this forum and why I am here.
I first made those dividers for myself after reading Halams book. Interesting thing happened. When I made them, I used the 3:5 and sometimes they worked and sometimes they didn't. I was frustrated and began to doubt it too. About that time, I hired this machinist (machinists tend to be anal about perfection), and when I told him I wanted him to make me some he started researching the GM. Later he came in and handed me "his" set. Well, they didn't match mine! They were an 1/8" off in 5 inches. Really freaked me out. I went back in and threw them on his desk and proceeded to stick my foot in my mouth. He informed me mine were wrong! Thats when all the light bulbs went off. And thats when all the original specimens I began to measure, along with ROCA, began being so "on" that it became no coincidence.

Take it or leave it! Its real. But I do really wish I could demonstrate it. But if I'm so wrong, I'm in outstanding professional company (both yesteryear and today) and it doesn't bother me one bit! I don't think I would be invited to teach it at Friendship if it were wrong. Oh yes, and there are records of proportional dividers in collections; John Manton had them.

Susie

[Fullstock longrifle]

Woodsrunner, The "Red Book"  is a nick name for a book published by the Kentucky Rifle Association in 1967.  The title of it is, "The Kentucky Rifle, A True American Heritage In Picture".

It's basically a picture book, but it shows some nice photo's of rifles that belonged to KRA members at the time.  The original red book is long out of print, but a re-print was done in the 1980's by the Forte Group, that one is out of print as well.  By the way, the re-print has a dust cover and the book is black.

Frank

[northwoodsdave]

Wow, I never expected to see such an esoteric discussion on a gun-building site!

Much of the Golden Mean information was kept alive (or created, depending on your view) by Freemasonry. And it is a very useful tool to obtain elegant proportions, since that 3 to 5 Ratio seems to bring a nice balance to things.

Freemasons were very much a part of early America (and Europe as well) so this kind of instruction was rather common among craftsmen.  Of course, the subject of Freemasonry itself can open up a whole 'nother can of worms! But many early gunmakers had ties to Freemasonry, so that would explain how they knew this.

I use the Golden Mean as a way of seeing if I'm getting close to a nice balance in my work.  It seems to work very well for that, though I don't get anal about it.  I have noticed that if something just doesn't look "right," it's often well off of the "Golden Mean."  The closer you stay to it, the more well-proportioned your work seems to be.

So the Golden Mean, in my opinion, just another handy tool to keep at your side.

David L

[JTR]

Leaving the non informative irrelevant posts aside, I’m not suggesting that the old makers used the Golden Mean and/or a set of calipers to lay out their guns. Just as not all contemporary guns are gorgeous pieces of art or proportions anywhere close, nor are all originals. Some guns catch the eye as being just right, and others fall far short.

The only point I’m trying to make, and from the measurements I did on some of my old ones, is that the ones that look just right seem to follow the ratio of the GM.  As mentioned previously, some guys have an eye for art and pleasing proportions, where others don’t. I once had a Kentucky made by Lewis Ghriskey. Now this guy made a lot of government contract rifles that suited the government just fine following the pattern, but he obviously didn’t follow that pattern for a Kentucky rifle, and the gun I owned was certainly no thing of beauty!  Even though the patchbox and the cheek inlay were copies of Derringer, the gun was still a clunker. Obviously the guy had no eye for art or proportion, whereas         J P Beck might have never heard of the GM, but didn’t need too,,, he was just born with it.

Now you guys that have been making guns since the start of time certainly aren’t going to change your way of doing things because of the Golden Mean, nor do you need too. But I still think its use might help the new builder that hasn’t been born with the eye for making a gun that looks just right, might help him make one that looks just right.
Only my 2 bits of course,
John

[hyltoto]

or a spiral that follows the golden mean proportion instead of the Archimedes's proportion. Most visible in nature such as the chambered nautilus sea shell. If you watch the Wallace Gusler DVD about carving, you find out that a set of carving gouges made in the 17-1800s made the same volute when placed edge to edge in order. I found a set, and it is amazing how the fit the contours of many patchbox and sideplate designs.  You can design a well proportioned carving pattern by laying out the design with you chisels. The carving gouges from Grizzly tool are your best best for low cost set.

[Ohioan]

Man, I didn't realize I'd open such a can of worms.

You guys are OPINIONATED! 

I love it!

Anyways....

So for someone who is just about to start building their first rifle from a blank, like me, would the Golden Mean be something usefull to get a well proportioned rifle?  I've spent about a year researching, I built a Kit Gun, and now I want to build a gun from the blank.  But I worry about making the rifle look "right".  I'm not an artist, maybe a craftmen, but I definately don't have any training. 

[Dave B]

I think that it is a good tool for one to use for helping you towards your final goal. I believe that the early builders in this contry used it be cause this is how they were trained. I don't doubt they thought any thing of the laying out of the general shape of the butt stock whether by pattern or calipers. I think you couldnt go wrong to use it in your study.

[jerrywh]

Ohioan
  The easiest way for you to do it is --find a photo of a gun that looks great to you and scale yours to  the same scale.  Everybody with an opinion  is opinionated.  What good is someone  without an opinion?? 
   If every gun fit the so called golden means] --- they would all look the same except for the frills. But then the frills wouldn't fit the golden means.  Is that boring or what??
   In my 50 plus years of gun making , I have been unable to find any reference to the golden means  in any of the 18th century or 19th century gun making books from Europe or the USA. I have about $25,000 worth of gun books.  The first I heard of it was from Gusler sometime in the 70's, if I recall correctly.  Somebody please show me a gun connected reference from the [ OLD MASTERS]. 

[Benedict]

The Golden Mean!!  I just have to add my little bit here.  I have read Barry Bohnet's article and Pat Hallam's book and found them quite interesting.  But I do have some problem in applying the Golden Mean slavishly to a gun.  The problem I have is that in all of the writing about applying it to a gun it appears to me that the author is trying to find measurements that are in the Golden Mean.  What you get is that it is applied differently to each gun.  Having said that, I know that when I have a tough decision about placing something, I will use it. 

The main thing is that if it looks good, it probably is in the Golden Mean and if it is in the Golden Mean, it looks good.

But don't get too hung up on the Golden Mean.

Bruce

[HistoricalArmsMaker]

Guys... the dividers are simply a tool to assist the eye with the beauty. Some folks can see it and some can't. Its a help-aid. The gun is always built around the barrel and the lock. We all know that is our starting place. The dividers are simply a  tool to help to determine points of placement, like the nose of the comb where it dies into the wrist, a handmade patchbox to the right proportions on a handmade rifle, handmade sideplates, etc. Notice here I am saying handmade. Dividers are fast. No calculations are necessary. Originals are rather small and are everywhere in collections in Europe. I think they were as common as the pencil and just not considered anymore cause of mention than a pencil. Anyway, its interesting this is causing such a stir. Its not like anybody is twisting arms to make you change! Its just a way to fine-tune.
Susie

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Susie, I find this concept intriguing.  Would you mind posting a photo image or a drawing of what the calipers look like with some dimensions?