.58 calibre

[54Bucks]

 Could I get some comments on the .58 cal. and/or performance comparisons vs. the .54? I'm entertaining the idea of a .58 in an Edward Marshal or English Sporter type gun. It will have a rifled roundball only barrel, probably swamped in the 38" range. Depending on what I decide to build,choosing between a .58 vs a .54 may be needed to get what I think may fit the build or just balance better. This will primarily be a hunting gun with elk being the largest critter it would face. More often whitetail. I'de really like to know whether the .58 has noticeable more recoil and/or a clear performance edge on the .54
                  Thanks

[BrownBear]

If you're planning to use some rip snorting loads when chasing elk or larger, I'd sure go with the ES rifle, or at least plan on some weight.  I've got a GRRW 58 cal Hawken with a 36" barrel tapering from 1 1/8" to 1" and tipping the scales right at 12 pounds.  It's a sweetheart to shoot with 130 grains of 2f, in spite of the Hawken butt.  I've also got a 26" tapered barrel on a TC Hawken, this time going from 1 1/8" to 15/16".  It tips the scale at around 8 pounds and bites like crazy with only 100 grains.  In between I've got a couple of TC Big Boars with "shotgun" butts.  They'll open your eyes at 110 grains, but they don't hurt in spite of their light weight.

As for differences from the 54, that's why I keep talking about 100 grain and heavier loads.  I don't notice a big improvement over the 54 till the velocities do get up a ways.  Shooting 80-90 grains of powder, I'm not sure you could tell them apart on either end of the barrel.

[Dphariss]

Could I get some comments on the .58 cal. and/or performance comparisons vs. the .54? I'm entertaining the idea of a .58 in an Edward Marshal or English Sporter type gun. It will have a rifled roundball only barrel, probably swamped in the 38" range. Depending on what I decide to build,choosing between a .58 vs a .54 may be needed to get what I think may fit the build or just balance better. This will primarily be a hunting gun with elk being the largest critter it would face. More often whitetail. I'de really like to know whether the .58 has noticeable more recoil and/or a clear performance edge on the .54
                  Thanks

It shoots a larger, heavier ball (270 gr vs 215+-) it will make a difference. How much? This would require testing in more detail than is likely to occur. I have hunted with both and never could see a difference on deer. Elk the 58 will be better but again how much?
If I wanted a meaningful step up for 54 I would go 62. 310-320 grain ball but still light enough to get pretty good velocity with 120 - 130 gr of powder. But its overkill for white tail as is the 58.
But then the buttstock design gets critical especially over 58 caliber.

Dan

[northmn]

My last rifle which needs finishing is an English styled 58.  For an English gun it is a very small bore but it is more than needed for a whitetail.  Advantages to a 58 include handling due to a lighter barrel whcih is often offered in the same configuration as a 54.  Mine is a straight 32 inch and holds like a dream.  I won the aggregate at a fairly prestigous match with a 58 and a 32 inch 1 1/8 barrel.  I did not win any single event, placed in all and was quite a bit ahead for aggregate score.  I even got third place in Bench rest with that gun.  Saying that, I sold it as the price was right and it liked pretty heavy loads whcih tended to wear me down.  Were I to pick between a 54 or 58 for most uses I would flip a coin.

DP 

[xring2245]

For what it's worth, I killed a 350 lb. caribou with one shot from a .50 cal. flinter.  The ball hit behind the right shoulder and drove through to the other side.  It did not exit.  The charge was 70 gr. 3F Goex behind a .490" RB.

The point I am making here is bigger isn't always better or necessary.  Accuracy will always beat size.

Get the caliber that you want, as long as you can put a ball where you want it to.

I now have a choice of three hunting guns - the same .50 cal., a .54, and a 20 smoothbore.  All three are capable of taking big game.  I just make sure I have a good load for each gun, shoot it frequently enough to be totally familiar with it, and for all reasons combined, I am confident that the gun will do what's it supposed to do.

"Beware of the man who only has one gun and knows how to use it..."


James

[Daryl]

54Bucks - I currently have 2 .58's and love them both- a 24" Musketoon and a double barreled Kodiak that I re-modeled a bit - it regulates perfectly.  The guys here can attest to it's accuracy on the bush trail walk we shoot and have on numberous occasions, right here.  I've never had a .54, but also had 4 other .58's in the past.  I love the calibre - it is perhaps to a .50, as the .58 is to the .54.  The .58 is a big step form the .50 and the .54 is in the middle.

A flat butt and the .58, given 9 1/2 pounds, is quite plesant to shoot for a powerful gun, although few (no one) wants to shoot my double rifle, even with it's flat butt. They say it appears to kick a bit - or perhaps more than that.  It's short barrels certainly bark. I shoot 100 or 110gr. in it for it's regulation loads, along with a .574" ball and .0225" patch. It also lieks a .020" striped ticking patch.

The E. Marshal is a perfect platform, as-is an English Sporting rifle, if heavy enough. If of short barrel, the English gun would need a straight barrel I think, or perhaps single taper, not a heavily swamped lightweight barrel as are the short 28" to 31" comercial bls.

This rifle kicks, is of English design, but is easy to shoot due to it's weight of 9 1/2 pounds. Here, a mere 140gr.of 2f being touched off. It's the 200yard accuracy load. Less powder is less accurate.



This is a .62 Hawken in full throw - Taylor shooting, back in about 1977, I'd guess.  He didn't use light loads- probably about 120gr. here.



 

[Harnic]

Whatcha aiming so high for Daryl?  Shooting at geese?    How does your shoulder hold up to that?  A few years ago you were having a hard time with it.  I hope it's healed.

[Roger Fisher]

Good ol Leon Buck some good years ago went from a half stocked 45 to a .58 and developed a $#*! of a goose egg on his upper arm (yes he held her out on his upper arm) not to mention a terrible flinch.  He shortly after quit shooting and I blame that .58.   I refer to line shoots etc rather than hunting. We lost a fine marksman there.  

[BrownBear]

Good ol Larry Buck some good years ago went from a half stocked 45 to a .58 and developed a $#*! of a goose egg on his upper arm (yes he held her out on his upper arm) not to mention a terrible flinch.  He shortly after quit shooting and I blame that .58.   I refer to line shoots etc rather than hunting. We lost a fine marksman there.   

On that note 54bucks, I need to report that I do most of my shooting with my 58's using 30-60 grain charges of 3f.  All of mine really thrive on light loads, and they're just dandy head-thumpers for snowshoe hare.  Sure I hunt larger game with full snort loads, but I'm betting I shoot 100 light loads for every heavy load I shoot.  There's no rule that sezz you have to beat yourself senseless just because there's a large hole in your pipe.

[hanshi]

Having taken deer for years with a ,45 flintlock, I'm now convinced that while there's no such thing as overkill, a big ball and heavy power are not necessary for whitetail deer.  Some consider the .45 as the threshold for recoil with bores larger than that progressively becoming attention getters.  I don't know.  Maybe.  I do know a ,45 is easy on the shoulder.  IMHO the .54 KICKS.  The .58 can hurt when ramped up.  I own a heavy .54 rifle but have taken only one deer with it.  That should speak volumes.  I sold my .58 long ago.

[Snow on the Roof]

I have become a believer in good stock design. I have a .58 underhammer with a broad butt shotgun style stock. Even with stout loads and a 500 grain minnie, though it gets you attention, recoil is controlable. My friend's .50 hawken gets mean with that narrow butt and 80 + grains.
 As to performance the .58 will cleanly take anything you go after

[alsask]

I have 3 different .54 flintlocks.  The only time I find the recoil bothersome is bench shooting.  Offhand or kneeling they seem quite tame even with heavy conicals.

[Daryl]

Shoulder's just fine Harry (sorbacoil magnum pad inder the coat). Oh yeah, and gotta hold high when shooting way out to 200 yards with a bore rifle, ya know. Just looks at the smoke and its position.  Here's the aiming pic, aiming at the 200 yard bull, just before the blast.  The recoil from standing is not bad at all, but not for the faint of heart.  It does rock you a bit and now we get to do it AGAIN! What fun!



My narrow butted .58 Hawken used to be punishing with slug testing off the bags, even with the light one, a 480gr. thick skirt minnie I modified. I modified all of those moulds, inluding the #57790 or whatever it was- to cast a 610gr. slug with 140gr. 2F - that kicked a bit.

Otherwise, with a decent butt plate and gun weight, the .58 is not bothersome at all - easy to shoot with good loads, as-is a .54.  Pees in a pod, with the .58 being slightly larger, heavier pees.

[Harnic]

Shoulder's just fine Harry

Glad to hear that Daryl!  I best get one of those pads for my new Rice 58 cal barrel too!

[B.Habermehl]

The deer on my friend's farm just think my .58 is poisenous. It goes boom, they run a little ways and fall down, usually leaving a blood trail that a blind man can follow on his hands and knees. It surprisingly does not mess up the meat too much and has nearly allways left a nice exit hole for good blood trails. I have never had a deer drop like it was hit with a thunderbolt, they have allways run just out of sight 30 to 50 yds. That's why I like the larger exit holes the .58 leaves, easier recovery. My rifle is a light short early English style rifle with a 28 in Getz barrel and Chambers lock, it weighs about 6 lbs. The stock design deals nicely with recoil. 80 gr ffg is a plenty stiff enough load for me for my usual 20 to 40 yd shots.

[BrownBear]

My rifle .... weighs about 6 lbs. The stock design deals nicely with recoil. 80 gr ffg is a plenty stiff enough load for me for my usual 20 to 40 yd shots.

That's a very good test and testimonial to the stock design.  Based on my experience with my short 58, that light powder charge does nicely on deer to twice those distances, too.

[B.Habermehl]

Certainly I could stretch out my shots a bit if necessary, but the reality is, my eyesight is the deciding factor. I doubt I would take a shot at a deer much past 60 yds. For one thing I probably wouldn't be able to spot a set of spikes or forks at that distance and with Pa's antler restrictions I would be concerned with shooting a illeagle deer. Historically for me at least, all the deer but one that I have harvested were close enough for a bow and arrow much less a muzzleloader. I just like to get right next to them.

[blunderbuss]

I shot white tail for years with both .54 and .58 Jagers 70 gr ffg never stopped a ball in any deer. I shot a 300lb Russian hog with the .58 using 70 gr ffg went through The entire Civil war was fought with guys using 500 gr minies and 65 g ffg The old timers back in the day used one grain per caliber or less .50 cal 50 gr powder but what did they know.
Your choice you'll never know the difference 

[zimmerstutzen]

to an certain extent, assuming equal powder charges, the launch speed of the 58 ball is sufficiently slower than the 54 that the energy and represents a trade off.  The 58 carries its energy only slightly better down range.  you may be better off with the 54 depending on what you wish to accomplish