Author Topic: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?  (Read 53867 times)

Offline Glenn

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #75 on: May 27, 2011, 04:25:11 PM »
.......  For one thing the vintage scopes, I am talking 1870s decades into known scope development here, have the objective lens several inches back inside a 3/4 tube I don't know why but its a fact they were often fairly high powered 10 power or more. Then they don't understand that the small tube is an attempt to keep the lenses small and so the weight down because of limitations in the mounts limiting the amount of inertia they will tolerate.

Dan

The lens were set back in the tube more than likely to reduce the glare both on the lens and off the lens, as well as to protect from rain, snow, etc.,  We all know that scopes will fog and that lens sparkle can be seen from a distance.  If you're a sniper, then you wouldn't want your position compromised because your target saw the glare from your lens and therefore decided to scram or get the jump on taking the first shot (I'm referencing mainly the story and known facts of the hunt and killing of the NVA "COBRA" sniper during the Vietnam war).

Personally I don't have any interests in ever mounting a scope on one of my weapons.  I've never used a scope ever and don't plan on it.  I do however find it interesting and as much believeable the there were some sort of enhanced optics utilized by the Continental Army and militias during our Revolutionary War, nor would it surprise me to learn the British had the same inclinations.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 05:28:13 PM by Ky-Flinter »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #76 on: May 27, 2011, 08:26:29 PM »
Sniping and light reflection was not a factor with the early scopes. Since there was no sniping going on as far as I know when they were being developed.
Scopes were typically longer than the barrel and its entirely possible the lenses were installed at the point needed to make the scope actually work the long tube being used with a mount in the front dovetail.
Scope sighted sniper rifles are not documented until the American Civil War.
Here we have not only documentation we have surviving rifles of the time.

If they were using optical sights on rifles during the American Revolution or even The War of 1812 it would have been remarkable enough to cause SOME MENTION by SOMEONE. 
So far as we know there is nothing of the sort.
Nor is there any mention of anyone being shot past 300-400 yards  by a rifleman which can be done with the sights in common use at the time and the round ball rifle. Even then then SIGHTS are not the limiting factor is RANGE ESTIMATION and BULLET DROP which even with a 1870s BPCR shooting heavy bullets and 100 grains of powder is extreme at 300 yards by current standards.

So until there  is SOME mention from the TIME by someone who WITNESSED the use of an optical sight during the American Revolution its simply speculation. In fact its WILD speculation without a single sentence to indicate that anything of the sort was ever used.

It is beyond my comprehension that this has taken up as much space as it has.

Dan


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Online Dennis Glazener

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2011, 12:52:19 AM »
Blunderbus wanted this email posted so I am doing it for him. Sorry but you will have to discuss what its for and where it originated with him.
Dennis
Quote
 
Hello,
 
Your quote is from "Colonel George Hanger, to All Sportsmen, and Particularly to Farmers, and Gamekeepers" (London: Printed for the Author, 1814). It's from a lengthy footnote pp205-9.
 
At three hundred yards the gun I speak of was tried in the following manner. The target was a board, two feet broad, and only three feet high. The bull's eye in the centre. I shot *down wind*, on the sands of the sea, at low water, lying down on a horsecloth on my belly. I had a lump of wood before me, on which was placed my hat, to rest the gun on. I imagine the whole height, to the crown of the hat, was about two feet from the ground. This, of course, gave to the muzzle of the gun, three or four inches *depression*, so that my gun, at some distance beyond the target, must have pointed into the sands. However, notwithstanding this, I found that the ball, when it passed on one side of the target, never struck the sands, under full sixty yards beyond the target. Now, provided my gun had been laid in a direct horizontal level, to the centre of the bull's eye, or had had the muzzle of it two or three inches *elevated*, instead of being *depressed*, (I speak to experienced riflemen,) would my sun not have been entitled to throw the ball *considerably further* before it struck the sands? -- Now, supposing I had shot at a target, at three hundred yards distant, which had been the height of a man, say five feet ten inches high, and, instead of aiming at the bull's eye, I had aimed at the top of the target, the same as at the top of the head of the figure of a man, am I not entitled to say, that my ball would either have struck *the breast* of that figure, or had passed by on one side of the target, and full as high as the breast of a man; and that it would not hae struck the sands, which lay on a direct level with the bottom of the target until it had reached a distance considerably above four hundred yards? I detest theory, but speaking to experienced riflemen, I do assert that this is not theory, but that it *is plain demonstration*, founded on the truest principles of the knowledge and system of projectiles.
 
I desire it may be understood, that the gun, the various merits of which I have described in this short treatise, entitled "*A Plan for the formation of a Corps which never has been raised as yet in any army in Europe, &c. &c. &c." is not the common rifle I speak of , which should be used with effect at long distances, before an enemy; but a gun, very far superior, from its distinct and various qualities as it is described to possess. The barrel of that gun, I sawed in half, and threw the one half over Westminster bridge, on one side, and the other half on the other. There, and in my breast, the construction of such a gun lies.
 
The footnote continues on for another couple of pages, but discussing other things. ** are italics in the original. (And I typed this quickish, so excuse typos.)
 
Btw, if you're interested in this comment, you might want to dig up a copy of the book, since about a third of it weaves around firearms of various shorts, military and sporting. Unlike George's memoirs, this one has been reprinted as recently as the 1970s. When I picked up my copy a few years back, I recall it being fairly cheap.
 
Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Marg B. <bantarleton@yahoo.com>

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Offline JTR

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #78 on: May 28, 2011, 01:27:23 AM »
 ;D Well I second Dan, and I only posted one short response!

However it has been a good thread, interesting, a bit provocative, but without a shread of proof.
Again, given the relatively short range of rifle accuracy then, why even the need for a scope?

As for the super flat shooting barrel that was cut in two and pitched off a bridge, well, I'm not going to hold my breath for that one either. Read some of the Sharps rifle testimonials from the 1870s for similar proclamations.
Flat trajectory or rainbow trajectory is simply question of power pushing the projectile verses projectile weight, air resistance and gravity. No miracles, then nor now.

You guys can keep at it as long as you like, but I'll be quite now, and continue to consider the odds at about zero. ;D

John
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blunderbuss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #79 on: May 28, 2011, 01:38:14 AM »
;D Well I second Dan, and I only posted one short response!

However it has been a good thread, interesting, a bit provocative, but without a shread of proof.
Again, given the relatively short range of rifle accuracy then, why even the need for a scope?

As for the super flat shooting barrel that was cut in two and pitched off a bridge, well, I'm not going to hold my breath for that one either. Read some of the Sharps rifle testimonials from the 1870s for similar proclamations.
Flat trajectory or rainbow trajectory is simply question of power pushing the projectile verses projectile weight, air resistance and gravity. No miracles, then nor now.

You guys can keep at it as long as you like, but I'll be quite now, and continue to consider the odds at about zero. ;D I think above 400 yards one would need a scope

John

Offline JTR

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #80 on: May 28, 2011, 01:50:56 AM »
Blunderbuss,

That's what I'm saying, that at ranges like 400 yards the rifle won't be accurate enough to even warrant the use of a scope.
At that range, I doubt it'd be able to hit a barn door sized target consistantly, so what's the point of a scope?

John
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #81 on: May 28, 2011, 10:06:04 AM »
It is beyond my comprehension that this has taken up as much space as it has.

Dan


Dan.  You posted 11 long responses to this string...........




So?

Dan
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blunderbuss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #82 on: May 28, 2011, 06:56:06 PM »
Goodness some of y'all wanted documented proof one fellow even quoted Hanger to me and wrote it in red. So here out out of Hanger's mouth ,how much more documented can one get? he says:It's not the common rifle I speak of,that can be used at long range before the enemy....but a gun very far superior. I'm working on where he obtained this gun as my pulmonary findings are that it was from an improved American rifle. Then he says 400 yards and beyond then he destroyed the barrel so we know the secret is in the barrel

Offline spgordon

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #83 on: May 28, 2011, 07:02:56 PM »
I agree: SO?

What's surprising about the amount of space this thread has taken up isn't the number of words but the fact that, despite explicit evidence to the contrary (not speculation), some posters continue to suggest not only that a telescopic sight during the American Revolution was conceivable (which it obviously was) but that it was actually being used but kept secret! It is not true that there's not "a shred of proof" about this matter. Two reports from 1775/1776 reveal clearly that PA's revolutionary government did not have a rifle with a telescopic sight that they wanted.

One cannot base a claim on this sort of argument: since things can be kept secret, and any telescopic sight would have been important technology, no evidence about it would have survived even if the technology had been in use. We have two pieces of evidence where people talk quite freely about the desire to obtain the technology. There is no justification whatsoever for imagining that, had they accomplished it, they wouldn't have talked similarly about it.

Vast amounts of personal (not meant to be public) papers survive from military and civilian leaders, including Washington, Rittenhouse, etc. They communicated the most confidential or top secret matters through letters that survived. As Dphariss noted, some trace of its use--by those who used it or those who it was used against--would have survived.

I still would like to hear about why a telescopic sight was thought desirable if the rifle itself couldn't shoot accurately as far as the sight could see.

Scott
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:13:09 PM by spgordon »
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #84 on: May 28, 2011, 07:08:29 PM »
Blunderbuss:

The quotation from Colonel George Hanger, to All Sportsmen, and Particularly to Farmers, and Gamekeepers (1814) is very interesting. But:

A. When did he conduct this experiment? 1814 is 40 years after 1775/1776.

B. What, precisely, is the improvement he made to this rifle to make it "superior"? I cannot tell from the quotation what modifications he made. He doesn't mention any special sight, does he?

C. Is he talking about a single prototype used experimentally? Or some rifle that was actually in production?
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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #85 on: May 28, 2011, 07:24:05 PM »
I'm working on that. I ordered one of his books and have a couple of undocumented statements,I'm running down one says it was a bullet similar to an Express bullet winged conical which would answer why he destroyed the barrel (the secret was in the barrel). and for the flatter trajectory Another says he he got the rifle design from an improved American rifle. The more questions I answer the more I find. Why would he destroy the barrel ?
I know it says ball but they called Minie's balls too,and he may have been keeping that to himself also
« Last Edit: May 28, 2011, 07:26:02 PM by blunderbuss »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #86 on: May 28, 2011, 08:25:36 PM »
Goodness some of y'all wanted documented proof one fellow even quoted Hanger to me and wrote it in red. So here out out of Hanger's mouth ,how much more documented can one get? he says:It's not the common rifle I speak of,that can be used at long range before the enemy....but a gun very far superior. I'm working on where he obtained this gun as my pulmonary findings are that it was from an improved American rifle. Then he says 400 yards and beyond then he destroyed the barrel so we know the secret is in the barrel

I'm sorry but the Hanger quote is gibberish, it apparently indicates the rifle is able to defy physics "depressing the muzzle"? For a long range shot??  Or Hanger was incapable of explaining it properly. In any case this one page of writing coupled with his statement that British Light Infantry chased Morgan's Riflemen for miles has pretty well destroyed my faith in Hanger as a source. I was somewhat concerned about using him as a source after reading the Morgan story, which is unsubstantiated, but this thing on the "super rifle" takes the cake. Why did he not take it to the British Army?
Destroying the barrel, he says, also prevents anyone who actually knew how to test firearms proving the whole passage is complete BS.
I base this on
1. The surviving rifles of the time.
2. The writings of the time.
3. Extensive personal experience.

There is no mention of optics of any kind BTW.
After looking into his lifestyle and habits I am starting to believe that Hanger's reputation as one of the foremost riflemen in England was something he wrote himself and then has been passed on by people quoting Hanger... I found his bio and some other information in looking for quotes from his writings as research on this thread.
http://home.golden.net/~marg/bansite/friends/hanger.html
http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/lobsters/ban.html

There was no documents describing a "super rifle" other than the large bore wall rifles previously mentioned, there is no mention of any special sighting equipment. No documentation for scopes, no surviving examples means there is no evidence that such a sight was ever in use in 18th century America.  I would point out that as far as I know there are no examples of such things in the various royal and private collections in Europe either. No documentation, no surviving specimens means there is no evidence. No evidence means they did not exist, its all supposition.

"Secrets"?
How do would you keep this secret? Would you kill the man that made the scope? Did Hanger kill the guy that made the "super rifle"   ::)

Maybe like the BAR it was so important that they would not even use it in combat for fear the enemy would get the technology . As a result of this stupidity the BAR was not used in Europe in WW-I where is was SORELY needed.
It was thought to be too secret and effective to risk in combat ::)

Dan
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blunderbuss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #87 on: May 29, 2011, 05:27:53 AM »
I looked up Benjamin Robins  "New Principles of Gunnery'1742 http://Http://chest of books.com reference/American-cyclopedia-10/rifle.HTML wow did this guy have it going on. He knew about ''gaining twist'' and regular rifling said it made no difference ,(how long did it take us to figure that out?) mentions breech loaders and progressive depth rifling and the difference between rifling's in breech loaders and muzzleloaders. also mentions oval bullets. Here's the clue on Hanger's rifle " If the barrel be rifled and the ball so made that the projections on it's surface precisely fit the grooves of the rifling the ball in passing through the barrel must receive the motion of rotation about the axis of rotation will then nearly or quite coincide with the tangent to the trajectory during it's flight the sources of deviation above mentioned (above he described a smoothbore musket and the bounce of the ball down the barrel)will be removed." OK remember earlier I mentioned an Express bullet? An express bullet has "projections" You need to see this site its awesome what this guy knew about ballistics and etc.,and in 1742
So what we've learned  on this thread is that Newton first put a telescope to a rifle  and then in 1775 and 1776 brilliant men were working on them and that in 1742 they not only knew about rifling but different twist for round and conical balls.They even had the cross hair thing worked out.I even learned that you can write in red on this forum I had no idea.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #88 on: May 29, 2011, 05:59:08 PM »
I looked up Benjamin Robins  "New Principles of Gunnery'1742 http://Http://chest of books.com reference/American-cyclopedia-10/rifle.HTML wow did this guy have it going on. He knew about ''gaining twist'' and regular rifling said it made no difference ,(how long did it take us to figure that out?) mentions breech loaders and progressive depth rifling and the difference between rifling's in breech loaders and muzzleloaders. also mentions oval bullets. Here's the clue on Hanger's rifle " If the barrel be rifled and the ball so made that the projections on it's surface precisely fit the grooves of the rifling the ball in passing through the barrel must receive the motion of rotation about the axis of rotation will then nearly or quite coincide with the tangent to the trajectory during it's flight the sources of deviation above mentioned (above he described a smoothbore musket and the bounce of the ball down the barrel)will be removed." OK remember earlier I mentioned an Express bullet? An express bullet has "projections" You need to see this site its awesome what this guy knew about ballistics and etc.,and in 1742
So what we've learned  on this thread is that Newton first put a telescope to a rifle  and then in 1775 and 1776 brilliant men were working on them and that in 1742 they not only knew about rifling but different twist for round and conical balls.They even had the cross hair thing worked out.I even learned that you can write in red on this forum I had no idea.

Belted ball rifles did not work any differently than rifles with normal rifling  (aside from allowing ridiculously fast twists in RB rifles)  and many at the time, 19th century, thought it was a poor idea. The British "Brunswick" percussion service rifle used a belted ball.
The belted ball did not get "popular" until the British tightened the twist so far that heavy rifles could not use more than relatively small charges powder without stripping.
So they used the belt to hold the rifling. Again some experienced riflemen and hunters thought the fast twist and belt were at best unnecessary and at worse it was detrimental to general use.  But of course the gunmakers, who did not use the rifles in the FIELD, thought the fast twist was great. This resulted in a great much big game under resorting to using smooth bores since the ranges were usually short. Others argued the makers into slower twist or found someone who used them to build a rifle.
If we want to go there we could talk about the rifles with octagonal, pentagonal, square, diamond and heart shaped bores. They all exist, especially, in Germany, probably in masterpiece rifles.
But the generally run guns had typical rifling but the Germans also liked fast twists and in general the American rifles out performed them.
There is an EXCELLENT chance that the rifle Hanger "tested" simply had a slow twist.
Given his "scientific approach" its impossible to know what it was.

I could tell you why gain twists were popular and many serious gunmakers found them to shoot better (Harry Pope used a gain) but don't see the point. Properly done gains STILL shoot extremely well with bullet or ball and they are still in production. Back in the day, with somewhat cruder rifling machines they had a very real advantage at least with the 1830s "picket" and bullet rifles.
BUT they are difficult to "fresh" or even lap though it can be done, I am told. These did not really become common until the advent of the Picket/Sugarloaf bullet developed about 1830.
By about this time the belted bullet was also in use in Britain. Experiments with various "naked" bullets were also ongoing but while I am sure there was experimentation prior to this. But theory and experimentation does not indicate ACTUAL USE any more than his drawings prove that he flew a helicopter or drove a tank.
It took a VERY long time to make these viable since they required other technology to make them viable.
Once rifling was invented I am SURE all sorts of things were tried. Bu with the AVAILABLE technology the ROUND BALL and OPEN SIGHTS remained the norm until about the third decade of the 19th century.
It was not until then that the TECHNOLOGY advanced to the point that telescopic sights and ACCURATE elongated bullets were practical for use and even then they were generally specialty items used mostly by "rifle cranks" searching for ultimate accuracy. By the advent of the Civil War the heavy "slug gun" rifles were so accurate that it was after WW-I before cartridge guns began to catch up.
So while Da Vinci thought of the helicopter we did not find people flying around 13th & 14th century battlefields in helicopter gunships.
So unless you can find some USE of long-range "super rifles" with telescopic sights you are simply trying to put 19th and 20th century technology into the mid 18th century through supposition.

Dan


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Offline spgordon

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #89 on: May 29, 2011, 08:50:17 PM »
The Isaac Newton reference, too, seems to be shoddy. Every source I've found says the same thing that the Barsness article recently said: "Issac Newton is usually credited with being the first to fit a telescopic sight to a firearm, sometime in the early 1700s." But nobody bothers to explore whether he should be credited with this: each subsequent writer just repeats the same vague phrase ("is usually credited with").

I would wager that, simply because Newton was an expert in optics, some later writer imagined that (if anybody) he would have imagined a telescopic sight and subsequent writers repeated the tall tale.

The DaVinci point is excellent: one wouldn't claim, would one, that the fact that DaVinci drew a "flying machine" in 1490 that it was in existence at the time? On the contrary: his many drawings about flight testify to exactly what could not be achieved--but could be dreamed of--at that moment.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 08:51:19 PM by spgordon »
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Offline Glenn

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #90 on: May 30, 2011, 06:52:22 AM »
Although I'm no expert on rifling speeds, after reading various articles on gain-twist rifling, I've always been left with the impression that any benefit (if any) realized by gain-twist rifling was mostly learned after conicals became more popular.  I've never been convinced that PRB(s) benefitted all that much from gain-twist rifling speeds.
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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #91 on: May 30, 2011, 07:08:28 AM »
They argue gain twist even today but if one was better you'd be able to prove it, so as Robins said in 1746 there isn't a difference and at the time they only used gain twist on small pistols. I need a copy of Robins book "new Principles of gunnery" They discussed twist of different shaped bullets in muzzle loaders and breech loaders. I still think that the fast twist in some Jaegers is due to the fact they may have been shooting conicals.

Offline Glenn

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #92 on: May 30, 2011, 07:42:09 AM »
They argue gain twist even today but if one was better you'd be able to prove it, so as Robins said in 1746 there isn't a difference and at the time they only used gain twist on small pistols. I need a copy of Robins book "new Principles of gunnery" They discussed twist of different shaped bullets in muzzle loaders and breech loaders. I still think that the fast twist in some Jaegers is due to the fact they may have been shooting conicals.

That's what I was saying I think any benefit of the gain-twist rifling was mostly realized with conicals.  I also agree however that conicals were more common earlier than a lot of folks tend to believe.

And again ... same goes for percussion ignition.   I think percussions were gaining in popularity faster and sooner than what seems to be traditionally believed.  I cannot wholeheartedly agree with the theory that only flintlocks were used at the Alamo. ???
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #93 on: May 30, 2011, 08:43:38 AM »
They argue gain twist even today but if one was better you'd be able to prove it, so as Robins said in 1746 there isn't a difference and at the time they only used gain twist on small pistols. I need a copy of Robins book "new Principles of gunnery" They discussed twist of different shaped bullets in muzzle loaders and breech loaders. I still think that the fast twist in some Jaegers is due to the fact they may have been shooting conicals.

It would be an interesting conversation on rifling twists, if we had some common frame of reference.

WHERE IS THE EVIDENCE FOR CONICALS DURING THE TIME FRAME OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION OR EVEN WAR OF 1812? I don't mean stuff people experimented with or wrote about but that the average person knew about and used.
THERE IS NONE.  What someone might "think" is of no consequence.
THE GERMANS AND THE BRITISH SHOT LIGHT POWDER CHARGES IN THESE FAST TWIST RIFLES with patched round balls NOT CONICALS.
THIS IS DOCUMENTED. This is one reason the German riflemen imported by the British were often outshot by the Americans they were supposed to counter.

But of course you would have to read things that shoot holes in your suppositions to learn this.
So its easier to suppose that this or that is so. This then allows you to suppose even more things.
Soon we have people flying Da Vinci's helicopters....

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #94 on: May 30, 2011, 09:49:30 AM »
They argue gain twist even today but if one was better you'd be able to prove it, so as Robins said in 1746 there isn't a difference and at the time they only used gain twist on small pistols. I need a copy of Robins book "new Principles of gunnery" They discussed twist of different shaped bullets in muzzle loaders and breech loaders. I still think that the fast twist in some Jaegers is due to the fact they may have been shooting conicals.

That's what I was saying I think any benefit of the gain-twist rifling was mostly realized with conicals.  I also agree however that conicals were more common earlier than a lot of folks tend to believe.

And again ... same goes for percussion ignition.   I think percussions were gaining in popularity faster and sooner than what seems to be traditionally believed.  I cannot wholeheartedly agree with the theory that only flintlocks were used at the Alamo. ???

Percussion guns swept the flintlock away in England rapidly. IN SHOTGUNS.
Rifles converted much slower according to Nigel George in "English Guns and Rifles".
Some of us that have spent time considering it think that the early percussion systems and/or caps were likely less consistent. This was not a significant factor in shotguns where the faster ignition greatly aided WING SHOOTING. The "sporting" idle rich/royalty/landed gentry who did most if not all the wing shooting wasted no time either buying new percussion guns or converting their flint guns. But inconsistent ignition will wreck havoc on rifle accuracy and this could be the reason rifles lagged somewhat.
But this is supposition. However, today "magnum" caps cause accuracy problems with BP loads. Great with grey powders. 
But we have flintlock rifles in widespread use and still in production in 1840s  American. Sure people were using percussion rifles & guns and some adopted it early. But we have documents that indicate that in the WEST the flint rifle hung on. It was proven technology.
Even though there were hardware stores stocking percussion caps by the millions in the mid-late 1830s the fur companies were still ordering flintlock rifles.
We have patent dates for percussion ignition and a host of guns with various early percussion ignition systems that are pretty well dated. Many English guns were serial numbered and can be dated by this in some cases.
There were so many breech loading flintlocks in England in the 1750s and before that were virtually identical to the Ferguson that some have wondered what Ferguson invented. (IIRC it was notches in the threads of the rotating breech piece to reduce powder fouling jamming the screw). But these, including the Ferguson, shot ROUND BALLS from all accounts.

The "conical" is not well documented until the advent of the picket bullet and as previously stated the picket requires more complex equipment to shoot accurately. Reminds me, there is a Picket Rifle match on the 4th of June, I need to swage some more bullets and cut some patches. They have to be round and just the right size to work right with the starter.
It was circa 1850 before the military, despite considerable experimentation starting in the early 19th century, SFAIK, perfected the minie ball for infantry use. Naked bullets, as previously stated, are essentially useless for anything but military and target use. General civilian use of either is not very common. Pickets WERE common by the 1830s-40s, the bullets Colt Perc, revolvers shot were very much like a pointed picket bullet. But picket rifles INVARIABLY are made to accept a starter or false Muzzle. Without one or the other of these the picket just does not work. This is evident in writings of the time and current experience.
With all the cased sets of various sorts of firearms in England and elsewhere there would be some elongated bullets or moulds showing up if conicals were in use in the 18th century. The field of firearms has a great wealth of surviving firearms from the 18th century, both here and in Europe.

Folks really need to do more RESEARCH and less supposition.
Don't matter how much you want something. In the realm of history no proof means its did not exist. Its not as though some time traveler went back to the Battle of Breeds Hill with several gallons of maxi-balls, a box full of TC "Hawkens", 100000 caps, 100 pounds of Pyrodex and started a revolution in ballistics.
No elongated bullets in the written or archeological record, no surviving moulds or bullets in cased sets and so no proof.
Conclusion? No "conicals" IN USE before 1820 until proof surfaces to the contrary.

Dan 
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline TPH

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #95 on: May 30, 2011, 06:21:51 PM »
Is the scope mount the hard part? Consider the fact that optical devices (telescopes, binoculars, etc.) are today relatively sturdy devices but in the 18th Century they were fragile. A good solid whack would damage them, throwing the lenses out of alignment. Now, while the recoil of a muzzleloading longrifle is not at all severe by modern standards repeated jolts, even mild ones, could throw the lenses out of whack making the telescope useless. This is one reason why the telescopic sight for rifles was an expensive and scarce item until relatively recent times.
T.P. Hern

blunderbuss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #96 on: May 30, 2011, 06:40:22 PM »
From what I've found out about the scopes Newton made they were non adjustable .Set to one point of impact

Offline spgordon

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #97 on: May 30, 2011, 07:53:41 PM »
What did you find out about the scopes that Newton made?
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

blunderbuss

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #98 on: May 30, 2011, 08:12:38 PM »
Just said that they were not adjustable and he was applying the principles he learned in his other telescopes. Sounds like he was making them for customer
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 08:35:18 PM by blunderbuss »

Offline spgordon

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Re: Rifle scopes in 1776 ?
« Reply #99 on: May 30, 2011, 08:35:35 PM »
where did you find this information?
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook