Sighting in Fixed Sights Question

[Muleskinner]

Just wondering here whats the best way to sight in fixed sights for target shooting,the ranges would be the usual 25-50 and 100 yard distances of course this would be on two different size bulls and animal targets at these ranges,my thoughts here are maybe sight in at 50 yds with center hold and then hold accordingly at the other distances,your input here appreciated

[ottawa]

get a good load for the 25yard then work from ther to the difrent rages  most seem to start at the 25 yard mark its easyer to mak corections coause its easyer to hit a 25 yarder tostart with a new siteing we do that in the milatry today zero at 25 yard then adjust for the longer ranges

[smokinbuck]

Mule,
I agree to start at 25  yards. Experiment with different loads to determine a good group and then you can move the group to center at 25 yards. Once you have the group centered you can vary the chatge to accomodate the different yardages or adjust the sight for a different yardage and play with your sight picture.
Mark

[Standing Bear]

All of my fixed sight guns are sighted dead on at 50 yards.  There is no discernable difference at 25 when shooting off hand. 

Most can then be brought to dead on at 100 by increasing the 50 yard charge by 50%.  IE the .40s are sighted dead on @ 50 yards w/ 50 gr FFg and when loaded to 75 gr FFG they are dead on @ 100.  The .50 uses 60 and 90.  Still working on a .54 flinter and hoping to get similar results.
TC

[Don Getz]

I really like the way you guy adjust your load for different ranges.   When you go hunting, do you wait until you see a deer
before you load your gun, depending on the distance?   When are you guys going to learn how to shoot?..........Don

[Candle Snuffer]

I sight in at 25 yards using the same hunting load for target as I do for hunting.  I then practice throughout each year before hunting season shooting 25, 50, 75, and 100 yards, with the 75 and 100 yard shots being kentucky windage and elevation.  As said before, at 25 & 50 yards there is no concernable difference unless I'm tweeking a target for score at 50 yards.  This works for me.

[Dave Faletti]

Don.  It must be rough when the deer moves and they have to pull the load to change the charge.   

Better to just zero for some range between 50 and 100.  I have one rifle where the hunting charge is zero'ed at 100 and an accurate fluff charge gives me a zero at 25 and 50 but I wasn't planning on that.  All my rifles are hunting rifles I target shoot with and I rarely have a need to shoot past 100 so thats what determined my preference.

[rsells]

I work up a load at 50 yards then sight in dead on at 25 yards using that load.   The same load is on with my rifles at 50 yards as well.  I use the same load at 75 and 100 yards using different elevation corrections needed for my specific rifle at those yardages to get on target.  Example, my 54 is spot on at 25 and 50 yards using 70 gr of FFF.  I have to make adjustments at 75 yards (2 inches) and 100 yards (5 1/2 inches) using the same load.  I don't take a shot at a deer if I feel it is over 125 yards when I hunt.  If I take a shot at that yardage, I aim just below the profile line going down the back of the animal.  Worked for me for years.  I use the most accurate load at all yardages using a different hold on the target for the longer distances. 
                                                              Roger Sells

[SCLoyalist]

Muleskinner, I think the approach you outlined (center hold for near range, adjusting hold for 100 yds) is a pretty reasonable one.   For target shooting, your other option is a 'six oclock hold.'   If you were only shooting bullseye targets, there might be some advantage when your targets got scored, but if you're going to be shooting paper squirrels, crows, nightmares, running foxes, standing and running chucks, etc, or if you shoot woodswalks with different size targets,   being sighted in for a 6 oclock hold is a bit of a pain and a disadvantage.

The ballistics tables and programs I can find say that if you're sighted in for a center hold at 50 yds,  you're going to hit 3 to 6 inches low at 100 yds, or you may find yourself holding high on the black.  For paper targets, a lot of folks use a heavier charge for 100 yds to get more muzzle velocity and hence less drop out at 100 yds.    Again, the printed data I've seen says bumping the powder charge up may raise the point of impact by an inch or two.   (And, there are other variables, such as stock drop and how your eyeballs are calibrated that make printed tables just approximations of what's going to happen for real.)  If your style of rifle and the shoot rules permit, you might look at a buckhorn or semi buckhorn sight and experiment with different sight pictures and amount of blade showing for 100 yds.  And, find a load that gives as tight a group as possible before playing with the sights too much.    SCL

[Daryl]

I see your point, Don - but the thread's author was initially asking about target shooting, not hunting.  Many guys here adjust powder charges for zero's or accuracy at different ranges.  It's a practise I use when shooting my .69 cal. rifle. I put up with the reduced accuracy on informal trail walks to cut down on absorbed recoil and my powder use. I find that light 82gr.charge  is OK to about 50yards, but for normal, longer range serious shooting and hunting at all ranges, she gets double that amount of powder - which is iher accuracy load.

With most rifles, zero'd at 25 yards is also a 50 yard zero.

With decently accurate loads in, say a .40, or .45, there is only going to be 2 1/2" of drop at 100yards from a 25yard zero which puts the ball 1/2" high at 50. This trajectory requires about 2,000fps velocity.  That would be about 65gr. 3F in a .40 or 75gr. 3F in a .45. These are the accuracy loads in my rifles, which hold accuracy at all the ranges they are used, from card splits to gongs at 110yards away.  I use one load only and learn the trajectory of the rifle with that load.  When I approach the line for the shot, my rifle is already loaded. I don't have to judge the range, then pick a charge. I use one load, one charge walk up and take my shot holding how I need to to hit centre.  I don't use 'popper loads' as I've found they are innaccurate in every one of the rifles I've ever shot.  25 yards range is only useful for initial alignment of sights and is of absolutely no value in developing loads for accuracy - none.

[xring2245]

All of my fixed sight guns are sighted dead on at 50 yards.  There is no discernable difference at 25 when shooting off hand. 

This is exactly what I do and it works well for my rifles and smoothies.  With my rifles, I can still hit a target at 75 yards as long as it's bigger than a robin's egg.

Most can then be brought to dead on at 100 by increasing the 50 yard charge by 50%.  IE the .40s are sighted dead on @ 50 yards w/ 50 gr FFg and when loaded to 75 gr FFG they are dead on @ 100.  The .50 uses 60 and 90.  Still working on a .54 flinter and hoping to get similar results.
TC

I haven't tried this.  Sounds like something I should investigate.

James

[northmn]

get a good load for the 25yard then work from ther to the difrent rages  most seem to start at the 25 yard mark its easyer to mak corections coause its easyer to hit a 25 yarder tostart with a new siteing we do that in the milatry today zero at 25 yard then adjust for the longer ranges

I did the opposite with good results.  I would rough in to get on the paper at 100 yards and sight in at that range.  Usually had a pretty fair idea what works as a good load at that range and then check things out with a lighter load at 25-50.  Generally a 45 was good at 100 with 65-70 3f and a 50 with about 80.  A universal close load for a 50 is about 50 grains.  100 yards was where I would win the aggregate matches as most cannot shoot well at that range.  The differences in scores at 25 and 50 are much smaller than at 100.  Also an offhand rifle should be sighted in offhand.  You need to really be cautious with the file when sighting in and it takes a little time and more than one days shooting to do so.  Rifles can be pretty fussy as to rest vs offhand and you may even look at the sights different from either.

DP 

[Tom Cooper]

I do it somewhat different,

All of the functions ( trail walks, multiple clubs ) that I attend have their tie breaker set at between 13 and 15 paces, this is the distance I sight in at, I am on at 50 yds and 5 1/2" low at 100, this is with 60 grns of 3F and a 6 o'clock hold.

I do all of my sight in and load development from the bench, duplicating my off hand hold. load development is at 50 yds.

Just got back from a shoot this weekend, mixed class ( flint, percussion ), 2nd in mens rifle ( beat by 1 point), 1st in long gong, lefthand flint that I built. I must admit that with the long gong I upped the charge to 85 grs 3f as we had backed a fair bit away from the cylinder and there was a cross breeze that required a half blade hold off to ring it.

Its what works for me.

[Ron Brimer]

 I agree with Don G. I use a single load .sighted at 25, kills critters and paper.
   Ron B

[David R. Pennington]

I filed a little undercut on the back of my front sight and a slight slant towards the front at the top on the back. Now at 100 yds I just hold that amount that is slanted a little forward just above the notch. Its easy to do because it shines and the undercut part under it doesnt. I found my 50 GM at 75 gr. will deliver a 2.5 inch groupat 100 yds. but if I up the charge 5 grains my groups spread out to 5-6 inches!

[Candle Snuffer]

It is interesting all the different ways we use to sight in.  IMHO if your goal is small game or 25 to 50 yard target shooting then a 25 yard zero works best. 

If your goal is  big game and target shooting 25 to 100 yards, a 50 yard zero would probably be best.  At worse when dead on at 50 yards - it would be easier to aim just a tad low of center at 25 yards, and when I say a tad low at 25 - I'm only talking just below the 'X' ring.  It's not to difficult to determine the center of the target at 25 yards, so aiming just a tad low of center would be easily adjusted on your next shot to hit center.  Just some additional thoughts.

[northmn]

The use of one load is interesting as I have shot against those that do so.  It does make sense to use the most accurate load, but I found at close range like 25 yards a lighter load is plenty accurate.  You really cannot determine the most accurate load until you get back a ways.  My 50 percussion will shoot 80 grains as well as 70 at 100 yards.  I tried 90 grains of 3f and it was accurate with that but when I chronographed it there was such a small difference in velocity I stayed with 80.  Most of the top shots in my region used two loads.  In a 50 it would have been about 50 grains for up to 50 yards and 70-80 3f for up to 100 yards.  These were the people to beat.  Now I also accept that they were top shots and in another region others may do something else as a top shot can do a lot of things that work.

DP

[Pvt. Lon Grifle]

Multiple powder weight charges sort of go against the single volume measure hanging on your strap. I've never found a patch gun to have multiple sweet spots of differing charges fully equivalent at various ranges.   Lon

[bgf]

The use of one load is interesting as I have shot against those that do so.  It does make sense to use the most accurate load, but I found at close range like 25 yards a lighter load is plenty accurate.  You really cannot determine the most accurate load until you get back a ways.  My 50 percussion will shoot 80 grains as well as 70 at 100 yards.  I tried 90 grains of 3f and it was accurate with that but when I chronographed it there was such a small difference in velocity I stayed with 80.  Most of the top shots in my region used two loads.  In a 50 it would have been about 50 grains for up to 50 yards and 70-80 3f for up to 100 yards.  These were the people to beat.  Now I also accept that they were top shots and in another region others may do something else as a top shot can do a lot of things that work.

DP

Those charges (and 3f) are exactly what I use in my .50 most of the time.  At 25 yards, there is no difference you could measure off the bench last time I checked.  At 50 yards, 75 or 80 will give me a ~.5" or a little better advantage in group size over 50 or 60 gr. off the bench.  When I am shooting well enoughto believe it would make a difference, I may load up, but many days, I'm happy to stay on the target and just shoot the powder puffs, saving powder.  At 100 yards, 75, 80, or even 90 gr. starts to show its merit, but we hardly ever shoot at 100 (although I think we are going to start doing it a little more, which I'm all for). 

For hunting, I would probably use 80 gr. which I think would cover 25-75 or a little better.  I can't see a shot more than 50 yards where I would be hunting due to thick woods and steep terrain.

[Daryl]

I love shooting against guys who use light loads at 50yards and beyond in their rifles or smoothbores. It gives me a chance at winning.

[Tom Cooper]

To illustrate my point about where I sight in and the load I use.

There were 31 points possible on this trail, I did not take the easy shots if there was a choice.

[Daryl]

Interestingly shaped hole in your tie-breaker target, Clyde. It's large in overall size, but looks like a 3 shot group from one of my rat rifles.

I've got one of those score cards too. There were a total of 21 points on this trail- at Helfey Creek Rondy.  Had I only missed 1, instead of 2, I might have ended up with a 2nd or 3rd place.  Seems to me, Taylor won this particular event with a better tie breaker and 1 miss.

[xring2245]

How or where can I get a copy of these scoresheets so I can have one for woodswalks I want to run?

James

[blunderbuss]

If your making sights from scratch I make the rear sight higher than I know it needs to be and then  file a notch (with a three cornered file)give my best guess as to where the center will be.(This would be on a weapon with a fixed non movable sight) as a shotgun mounted on the rib .Then shoot the gun and if it shoots to the right you file the sight down until you can barely see the notch, and then file alittle to the left side of that notch.That's why  you make the rear sight extra high to start with.Once you determine where the notch should be (your group should be dead center but low) file the height down renewing the notch as you go. eventually you'll move up onto target. Move the back sight the way you want the bullet to go.

[Daryl]

James - private messsage sent.