Author Topic: Color Casehardening  (Read 12490 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Color Casehardening
« on: May 08, 2011, 07:50:24 PM »


Below are parts from a swivel breech and an English sporting rifle done by Kieth at Wyoming Armory in Cody, Wy on Friday May 7. No wire wrap, no warping, parts are hard cased and the colors outstanding.
To say Keith was "experienced" would be faint praise.
Don't want bright colors? Discuss it with Kieth.


The photos really do not do justice.





Before


After





I have had everything from original  Sharps and Peabodys SS rifle actions to Siler locks, L&R locks and one off shop made parts done by Kieth over a number of years and I have NEVER been disappointed nor have I ever had a part come back warped.
Some projects from the past.








Dan
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Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2011, 08:20:16 PM »
Looks nice Dan.  Do you know what kind of temperatures, hold times and resultant case depths that were acheived?  Might consider using this service at some point, but case depth would be a consideration.  Sometimes processes focusing on obtaining nice colors, do not obtain significant depths.  Not saying this is the case with this work, however.

Jim

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2011, 09:59:34 PM »
Looks nice Dan.  Do you know what kind of temperatures, hold times and resultant case depths that were acheived?  Might consider using this service at some point, but case depth would be a consideration.  Sometimes processes focusing on obtaining nice colors, do not obtain significant depths.  Not saying this is the case with this work, however.

Jim

First I have no idea of the case depth. I trust Keith.
He COLOR CASEHARDENS he does not just color. I know they were in the furnace for 4 hours or so.

Keith did this for a firearms manufacturer for several years. Many parts plus custom work for people like me or people sending originals in for restoration. These are not colored with no case like the Italian stuff used to be or might still be. Neither the customers nor the management would have tolerated this.

I think a lot of people here seem to think that the case has to be driven in really deep. I hear of long soak times with Kasenite for example. I have parts made of 1018 or similar that have been in use for several years after two or three doses of Kasenite after heating with a propane torch. High wear items like tumblers.
I know the penetration is not deep but it sure takes a lot of shooting to get through it compared to the stuff I used to take out of Italian revolvers and Sharps years back and reharden after finding them colored but soft.
I would further point out that deep penetration of parts like sear notches in tumblers and threads in breeches might be a bad idea due to making the parts excessively brittle in the thin sections. Kieth recommends any impact parts, like cocks/hammers be annealed 2 hours at 350 if carried out of the shop right after quench as these were, he was not concerned about the 1018 parts. The anneal is a normal part of his process. I annealed the cock and the breech plug.

Dan
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Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2011, 10:30:10 PM »
Thanks for the information Dan.  Since my interests lies in 17th and 18th century firearms, colors are no concern since they will be removed anyway.  My reason for carburizing is to of course provide a harder and stronger shell.  While the case doesn't need to be excessively deep, it does need to be at least a minimum as well.  As mentioned previously, considerations for obtaining colors often result in very shallow cases, sometimes as thin as .003 -.004".  This is much thinner than I feel is ideal for most parts I would be hardening.  Perhaps it is my background, but I have trouble simply trusting people with these issues.  I've been doing my own carburizing with relatively good success, but thought I might want to outsoruce it someday.  Just trying to get an idea of what processes are employed and available from common sources.

Thanks,
Jim

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2011, 03:38:25 AM »
Thanks for the information Dan.  Since my interests lies in 17th and 18th century firearms, colors are no concern since they will be removed anyway.  My reason for carburizing is to of course provide a harder and stronger shell.  While the case doesn't need to be excessively deep, it does need to be at least a minimum as well.  As mentioned previously, considerations for obtaining colors often result in very shallow cases, sometimes as thin as .003 -.004".  This is much thinner than I feel is ideal for most parts I would be hardening.  Perhaps it is my background, but I have trouble simply trusting people with these issues.  I've been doing my own carburizing with relatively good success, but thought I might want to outsoruce it someday.  Just trying to get an idea of what processes are employed and available from common sources.

Thanks,
Jim

There need be no case at all to get colors. I have seen imports, and an occasionally others with case colors that were dead soft or very nearly so.

If parts like a tumbler or sear are hardened to say .010 there is a risk of parts failure unless annealed sufficiently. But then the surface is not as slick if taken back too into straw.
Sear noses breaking off simply from snapping into the notches, thin sections of notches failing or shearing off. Some sears such as those in SA revolvers or other such guns or high end English locks are not very thick. The 1/2 cock can be very thin as well. Small tumbler shafts once drilled and threaded are not very thick. Many locks, even the late English full size sporting locks are not as "robust" as one finds in a musket or other military lock.

This is why I seldom leave a screw as cased. I have seen a number of slots and threads chip. Shiloh hardened the screws as well at least when I was there and I have seen both slot and thread failures since these were simply hardened then hot tank blued. If this happens with a production screw during assembly the screw goes in the trash. It its an engraved screw its more troublesome.


Dan
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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2011, 04:17:14 AM »
Great colors and the engraving and gunsmithing looks pretty nice too.

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2011, 04:30:22 AM »
I temper everything I case.  With relatively low temperatures, the drop in hardness is small, but the toughness increase is significant.  Even on a case hardened surface I don't feel comfortable with untempered martensite.  The difference in friction of a lightly tempered versus an as hardened case would be negligible in my opinion.  I recently carburized a tumbler and sear and if I remember I held for between an hour and an hour and a half.  Without looking at a chart I would guess this might give a case of .015" or so.  Haven't used the lock, but don't anticipate any problems given the parts were tempered afterwards.  

This has been debated before, but I get the feeling the tendency has been to carburize parts to a shallower depth in modern times largely due to the desire for colors.  Higher temperatures allow for more complete hardening and greater carbon penetration, but decrease the chance for good case colors.  The fact that steel is used for parts being hardened helps make the use of shallow cases possible.  Carburizing wrought iron to a decent depth adds substantially to its strength.  This can be important in some lock parts.  

As one example, I was recently given a broken European cock.  The case can be pretty clearly seen on fracture surface and is in the range of .020" or so.

With all this said, I must admit that all this debate is likely sort of splitting hairs given the number of fine locks being used that aren't carburized at all.  Since I carburize my locks I like to think it is creating some advantage, but how much I really don't know.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 07:16:22 PM »
W. Greener in "The Gun" circa 1830 talks of locks with steel internals vs iron. I assume he was speaking to high carbon steel. I would assume that these would be hardened then drawn back then polished white.
If I were to deeply caseharden a thin part like a sear nose or a tumbler  I would likely draw it back to a straw color, 400 degrees or maybe a little less. Just as I would a HC steel part.

If I were to case it thinner I would use as is. I would wonder how it would stand up to 100 years use but 3-4 years of shooting, several pounds of powder, has not changed the thinner cased tumbler on my English rifle and it has STRONG springs so sear nose pressure is pretty high since it has a small contact area. Its 1018 since the casting I received was untrustworthy.
If it gives trouble down the road I will have to fix. If I were to sell it I would examine the tumbler and sear  before it went to the buyer. But I would do that as a matter of course anyway.

I would point out that the deeply cased part did break. With a .020 penetration a .040 part is through hardened and needs to be treated like through hardened HC steel parts.

Dan
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Rasch Chronicles

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 07:21:40 PM »
Sir,

If the pictures don't do it justice, I would surely like to see 'em in person!

Now a practical question. The breech plug - how exactly do you torque it on without damaging the color? I don't know for sure, but say, copper guards on your wrench, wouldn't they leave a mark?

I'm dying to know!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Best Hog Hunting in Florida!!

Offline FlintFan

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 09:54:40 PM »
Sir,

If the pictures don't do it justice, I would surely like to see 'em in person!

Now a practical question. The breech plug - how exactly do you torque it on without damaging the color? I don't know for sure, but say, copper guards on your wrench, wouldn't they leave a mark?

I'm dying to know!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Best Hog Hunting in Florida!!


If I remember and old Muzzleblasts article by John Bivins correctly, he would wrap the breech plug with waxed paper then used shims of brass before he tightened on a wrench.  I've always found the most important item to use when tightening a breech plug is a well fitting wrench.  A simple adjustable wrench usually doesn't cut it unless you are going to do a lot of clean up after the plug is fitted anyway.  You need a wrench that fits tightly with parallel jaws.  This might include taking two stout blocks of steel that you can bolt together with the plug sandwiched inbetween, and then use a large wrench to grab onto those.  A good vise to hold the barrel is just as important.  If you have access to a heavy machinists vise to hold the barrel they work about 100% better than a simple bench vise. 

Offline kutter

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2011, 12:01:12 AM »
Great looking case color work. It really adds a nice touch to the finished job.

I worked for 3 years for one of the names in the C/C business back in the early 90's.
We didn't use any blocking plates or fixtures. No wire wraps or shields. Clean parts were simply placed in a proper order w/relation to each other in the steel pot. There was, with most parts, a demand that they hit the quench at a certain angle or side to avoid warping and that also determined how they were placed in the pot.

Parts were also wired individually to the pot so as hang in the quench when dumped,,then released to fall the rest of the way after a short '3' count.

Nothing but water in the quench,,no added chemicles,,no air adjitation. The quench was heated to 90F just before the parts went into it though. Quench tub was approx 25gal. and was never reused. Always dumped and fresh filtered water/rain water used each time. 
Furnace time was 2hr @ 1430F. Strictly controlled time & temp. Pot was not sealed with the lid but was setting on it of it's own weight only. Pot & lid discarded after about 25 'runs'.

No drawing back of the CH parts after they were done.  The ads said 'no warpage' but I spent a good bit of time tweaking Parker bottom plates, Winchester lever action receivers, etc. during reassembly.
The vast majority had nothing real bad and not each and every gun, but the myth of 'no warpage' is just that. Do enough guns/parts and something will move around on you.
The really bad occurances you never hear of,, but they do happen. Cracking of parts is the worst. TIG welding saves day. If people only knew....

Sometimes enhancement of colors is done to pieces that came out of the process with what we called 'grey with a little bit of grey in it'.
When you take them from the quench water which is hot!, they quickly dry and are clean. They were placed on a sheet steel plate and gone over carefully with a torch with a fine tip (#0 IIRC). The hot parts will take the heat from the torch and you can very quickly & easily flow more color(blues, yellow, some red, etc) into the pattern with it. It's easy to get carried away and spoil it, but also very easy to learn to make an unacceptable part, very acceptable. People that do the work can spot it because it's added temper color and there may be telltale torch pattern it there depending on the 'artist' ,,, but to most, it's just case colors.
An engraved surface hides any signs of the enhancement better than a plain one, but here too, you can get carried away.

Getting colors w/o hardening was done and is a hedge againt warpage. It doesn't help the shooter of a tight tolerance gun though and problems were frequently heard. They tried to run a balance of colors and hardening w/o the warping. Colors are in themselves the marketing item that people pay for.
People don't think about the hardness factor till their Parker or Purdey is opened and then won't close 'cause the frame is galled.

Colors done w/o hardening were very fragile and wore quickly. Protective coating was simply orange shellac thinned w/acetone quickly applied with a medical cotton Q-Tip type swab. Orange shellac was commonly used in the gun industry on their parts in the 19th and 20th centurys. The orange shellac enhances the colors abit more than so called clear shellac. Neither is very tough but is easy to apply/reapply/strip if needed.

Just some ramblings and a few old specs. Maybe someone can use the info in their work.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2011, 07:23:36 AM »
Great looking case color work. It really adds a nice touch to the finished job.

I worked for 3 years for one of the names in the C/C business back in the early 90's.
We didn't use any blocking plates or fixtures. No wire wraps or shields. Clean parts were simply placed in a proper order w/relation to each other in the steel pot. There was, with most parts, a demand that they hit the quench at a certain angle or side to avoid warping and that also determined how they were placed in the pot.

Parts were also wired individually to the pot so as hang in the quench when dumped,,then released to fall the rest of the way after a short '3' count.

Nothing but water in the quench,,no added chemicles,,no air adjitation. The quench was heated to 90F just before the parts went into it though. Quench tub was approx 25gal. and was never reused. Always dumped and fresh filtered water/rain water used each time. 
Furnace time was 2hr @ 1430F. Strictly controlled time & temp. Pot was not sealed with the lid but was setting on it of it's own weight only. Pot & lid discarded after about 25 'runs'.

No drawing back of the CH parts after they were done.  The ads said 'no warpage' but I spent a good bit of time tweaking Parker bottom plates, Winchester lever action receivers, etc. during reassembly.
The vast majority had nothing real bad and not each and every gun, but the myth of 'no warpage' is just that. Do enough guns/parts and something will move around on you.
The really bad occurances you never hear of,, but they do happen. Cracking of parts is the worst. TIG welding saves day. If people only knew....

Sometimes enhancement of colors is done to pieces that came out of the process with what we called 'grey with a little bit of grey in it'.
When you take them from the quench water which is hot!, they quickly dry and are clean. They were placed on a sheet steel plate and gone over carefully with a torch with a fine tip (#0 IIRC). The hot parts will take the heat from the torch and you can very quickly & easily flow more color(blues, yellow, some red, etc) into the pattern with it. It's easy to get carried away and spoil it, but also very easy to learn to make an unacceptable part, very acceptable. People that do the work can spot it because it's added temper color and there may be telltale torch pattern it there depending on the 'artist' ,,, but to most, it's just case colors.
An engraved surface hides any signs of the enhancement better than a plain one, but here too, you can get carried away.

Getting colors w/o hardening was done and is a hedge againt warpage. It doesn't help the shooter of a tight tolerance gun though and problems were frequently heard. They tried to run a balance of colors and hardening w/o the warping. Colors are in themselves the marketing item that people pay for.
People don't think about the hardness factor till their Parker or Purdey is opened and then won't close 'cause the frame is galled.

Colors done w/o hardening were very fragile and wore quickly. Protective coating was simply orange shellac thinned w/acetone quickly applied with a medical cotton Q-Tip type swab. Orange shellac was commonly used in the gun industry on their parts in the 19th and 20th centurys. The orange shellac enhances the colors abit more than so called clear shellac. Neither is very tough but is easy to apply/reapply/strip if needed.

Just some ramblings and a few old specs. Maybe someone can use the info in their work.

Interesting. Maybe if they had not changed the water so much they would not have had to take a torch to parts  ::)
If I had a part color case hardened and it was then colored with a torch I would have a major fit. Once heated to blue its not a very hard surface anymore.
This sort of thing is epidemic in the gun industry and is a reason I am very careful who I recommend to people. I have spent time fixing SS rifles that past out of some big name shops. The most recent was particularly unforgivable. Just really, really careless, sloppy work that required a barrel replacement.


Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 07:36:34 AM »
Sir,

If the pictures don't do it justice, I would surely like to see 'em in person!

Now a practical question. The breech plug - how exactly do you torque it on without damaging the color? I don't know for sure, but say, copper guards on your wrench, wouldn't they leave a mark?

I'm dying to know!

Best Regards,
Albert “Afghanus” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles™
Best Hog Hunting in Florida!!


I have an "action wrench" made of 1" Aluminum that I line with tape,  masking tape works well, 2-3 layers or a couple of layers of duct tape. But duct tape is "squishier" under pressure and I had to fish a piece out of the vent on this breech.
It as made for use with SS rifle actions but works with patent breeches as well. It clamps to the exterior of the action/breech. But is not really good for under 1" parts unless I put in shorter bolts.


Dan
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Offline little joe

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 12:16:35 PM »
The case hardening is bueatiful but take a look at the outstanding work it is on. LJ

Offline kutter

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2011, 12:33:31 AM »

Interesting. Maybe if they had not changed the water so much they would not have had to take a torch to parts  ::)
If I had a part color case hardened and it was then colored with a torch I would have a major fit. Once heated to blue its not a very hard surface anymore.
This sort of thing is epidemic in the gun industry and is a reason I am very careful who I recommend to people. I have spent time fixing SS rifles that past out of some big name shops. The most recent was particularly unforgivable. Just really, really careless, sloppy work that required a barrel replacement.


Dan


The torch enhancement wasn't done on every part. But on the occasional one that came out needing help.
It's more common than many would think in the industry. It may be just the tip of a tang, or the edge of a sideplate, etc. Perhaps a handfull of parts a week got a going over. That's out of several hundred in a week that were CCH.

Not annealing old work before recoloring was a big cause of it,,, he's was always in a hurry. Make more money that way you know...Alot of the old stuff could have had better colors on them than they did if better prep had been done. Like I stated in the original post,,,if people only knew what went on...

Doing an acceptable job is more common than doing it correctly these days unfortuately.

Not recyling the quench water.... We tried reusing it,,tried the addition of several different chemicals in different amounts to enhance the colors as is often stated that works,,tried the air bubble aggitation technique in several ways. None added to and most all decreased the colors.
Some places can use Municiple water for quench, some can't. Too many chemicals in the water and it'll spoil the process. We couldn't use it there and had to rely on filtered rain and snow melt water. Quench temp,,some say 'room temp', some have a specific like 70F.
We used 90F and it worked for the way we did the process.

Every one that does CCH does it in a different way though they may think it's the same as the next guys. The tinyest change in temp, times, pot size, char mix, quench water, drop distance to quench, etc all make a difference. Even the char mix was dried by heating a quantity needed for a run. Any excess moisture in the mix will result in problems in the final finish as it will with charcoal/oil blue done in a furnace.
The often voiced 'reuse the quench water', or 'use XYZ mix ratio', etc  doesn't necessarily always hold true. It may for the way one person ,,and cause problems for another.

I know of one individual that did CCH work and absolutely refused to color any part that contained a brazed repair in it.
(There are couple of shotguns that have a brazed in part inside the frame, and brazing repairs are common on older gun parts).
Braze will withstand CCH temps where silver solder will not. However, he said it ruins the pot, cover and even the furnace liner.
Another CCH shop, owner now retired, routinely ran brazed parts through for me with no problems. We did brazed parts too w/o any effect on the equiptment.
Same process,,different results.

I fully agree that there is some sloppy work done. I've seen alot of it first hand and had to fix alot it.
Back then there were 3 or 4 shops offering CCH work. Now there are many individuals doing the work.
No recommendation from me for my former employ.
I'll seek out a smaller shop doing the work like the one shown here when and if I need something done again.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 12:34:36 AM by kutter »

Offline BrentD

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2011, 03:19:21 AM »
How about taking the colors off? 

I'm interested in a "coin" finish, for lack of a better term.  Often seen on english locks, esp. double shotguns, in which the colors have worn off except in the corners and in the engraving itself.  This is for a Win 85 action but the gun itself is irrelevant.  I'm not looking for a french grey which is uniform across the entire surface but rather a thin case color that is variable in appearance. 

My thoughts are to use something like a mild acid or very fine polisihing abrasive on a cotton glove and then simply spend some time handling the gun.

alternatively, could go at it with a q-tip swab and some sort of polishing compound or mild acid. 

Any ideas?

Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2011, 03:46:59 AM »
I would be tempted to try something like rottenstone on a piece of felt with some oil.  You may also consider one of the very fine wire wheels that Brownells sells.  Seems I remember Mark Silver mentioning he uses it for that purpose.

Offline BrentD

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2011, 04:35:58 AM »
Those are good ideas Jim.  I have both the Brownells wire wheel and the rottenstone. 

Of to the labORatory... :)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2011, 04:50:20 AM »
How about taking the colors off? 

I'm interested in a "coin" finish, for lack of a better term.  Often seen on english locks, esp. double shotguns, in which the colors have worn off except in the corners and in the engraving itself.  This is for a Win 85 action but the gun itself is irrelevant.  I'm not looking for a french grey which is uniform across the entire surface but rather a thin case color that is variable in appearance. 

My thoughts are to use something like a mild acid or very fine polisihing abrasive on a cotton glove and then simply spend some time handling the gun.

alternatively, could go at it with a q-tip swab and some sort of polishing compound or mild acid. 

Any ideas?

Discuss it with the people doing the heat treat.


Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Dave Waters

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2011, 05:20:37 AM »
Kutter, Just curious, how did you get color without hardening? Or is that what you meant when you did touch-up with a torch?

Dave
« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:54:32 PM by Dave Waters »

Dave Waters

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2011, 05:25:08 AM »
Dan, 'bout all i'm into any more is swivel breech's. Chould you show more picts on that beauty? Please  ;D

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2011, 06:53:52 PM »
Looks nice Dan.  Do you know what kind of temperatures, hold times and resultant case depths that were acheived?  Might consider using this service at some point, but case depth would be a consideration.  Sometimes processes focusing on obtaining nice colors, do not obtain significant depths.  Not saying this is the case with this work, however.

Jim

Ruger's testing lab said he was getting .006-.008". They thought this was near perfect.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #22 on: May 11, 2011, 06:58:58 PM »
Dan, 'bout all i'm into any more is swivel breech's. Chould you show more picts on that beauty? Please  ;D

I need to get some good pictures taken now that its done, these are not that great.
May have to get out the old 35mm and get some bulbs for the lights.








Dan
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Online Jim Kibler

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2011, 09:59:49 PM »
Looks nice Dan.  Do you know what kind of temperatures, hold times and resultant case depths that were acheived?  Might consider using this service at some point, but case depth would be a consideration.  Sometimes processes focusing on obtaining nice colors, do not obtain significant depths.  Not saying this is the case with this work, however.

Jim

Ruger's testing lab said he was getting .006-.008". They thought this was near perfect.

Dan

Thanks for the information Dan.  Sure appreciate it.

Jim

Dave Waters

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Re: Color Casehardening
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2011, 11:51:06 PM »
WOW  :o Thanks Dan. Realy nice. Super job. What caliber is she?

« Last Edit: May 11, 2011, 11:58:27 PM by Dave Waters »