hawken parts found

[dave gross]

Sometime in the late 70's or early 80's I was approached by a "mountain man" and asked to build a nice Hawken rifle for which he would furnish the parts.  A few months later he showed up with a box of parts. These parts were put in storage in the dusty rafters of my shop while he shopped for the stock blank.  Months and years passed during which I called him occasionally to determine his progress. After a few years I heard  that he had "found Jesus" and renounced the things of this earth.  I finally contacted him about the disposition of his parts and was told to do whatever I wanted with them.  Not being much into Hawkens at the time I left the parts in their dusty storage place.  Yesterday while looking for something else I happened on the box of parts and laid them out on the bench.  The barrel is a 34 inch.54 caliber  tapered 1 1/8 to 1 inch marked W. M. Large with J.J.J.J under that and  an L under the J's.  The barrel was full of grease so it's nice inside though fuzzy with light rust on the flats.  It has the hook breech installed and the tang section is a nice snug fit on the breech plug stud. The lock, I was told at the time is a  Bob Roller, as are the set triggers.  The lock is of extremely high quality with finely finished internals and fully polished springs etc. I am unable to find a lock with internals  close to these in the TOW catalog.  In particular the hammer is very authentic in design and much like those seen in photos of original Hawken rifles. The lock is marked inside T. Gibbons...could this be the assembler or was I misled as to the lock maker?  The set triggers are also of very high quality and work as smoothly as any I have had my hands on.  The rest of the stuff is pretty much run of the mill.  So I must now get a rib for a tapered barrel and a stock blank and see if I can come up with something presentable.  I think I will use screws to attach the rib...was that the way it was done or was soft solder used?  I know that Hawkens are tough to get looking right but perhaps it will turn out ok.  Anyone have info on the Large barrel?  I know he made barrels in Ironton, Ohio but wonder what the four J's and the L mean.  Who also is the T. Gibbons whose name appears on the lock plate.  On page190 of the TOW catalog it mentions that a Thomas Gibbons made and signed locks for Sam Hawken though this lock certainly is not from the 1840's.  Was it so marked as to make it a more accurate copy of an original?  The internals of L and R's Hawken lock look "similar" to those in my lock but the finish of the parts and the shape of the hammer are not the same.  Hope I didn't put anyone to sleep with this....next time we'll discuss the "Golden Mean".  Thanks.Dave Gross 

[Tim Crosby]

 If I remember right his place was called the JJJJ after his daughters first names, I would think the L was for Large. I'm sure you will get everything answered here.

Tim C.

[Dave B]

Dave,
The best bang for your buck for the under rib is the one that Susie sells at MBS. It is the only hollow rib sold today and will set properly on a tapered barrel with a little tweekin in the vice with padded jaws. The Original were held on by a threaded stud that was peaned into a counter sink effectively riveting the rib in place the hollow at the front was filled with solder. Here's a picture of an original barrel with this arrangement that was shortend revealing the process used.



The lock you have sounds like a reproduction lock that was being made to build the hawken that is no longer being made I would assume.  I am amaised the more I do this I find that there has been a number of folks out there that have made locks at one time or other. Some sold their molds to others where the locks contiue to be made today just under a new name. Tox Faux is one such. I have several of his locks.

As it happens I am running a sale on golden mean calipers that are essential to building the correct Hawken rifle. I also have some prime swamp land for sale in FL for any wanting good gader and snake huntin.

[JTR]

Cool pic, and it certainly ends that debate beyond a doubt!

And I've ended the Golden Mean debate by supplying irrefutable  proof!
John

[dave gross]

Dave B...thanks for the pic of the rifle muzzle with the rib detail...I shall use that info to build this Hawken and will secure a rib from Susie.

Dave Gross

[Dan'l 1946]

The Gibbons locks are of very high quality--as good as any made at the time. The main springs were forgings and the locks were very reliable. I don't think they've been available for sometime now.

[dave gross]

I am amazed at the quality of this Gibbons lock.  The main spring is a work of art....looking much like the springs I have seen in some old guns...it is forged not cast and is so delicate in appearance that it's hard to believe it could provide enough power to pop a cap.  The leaves of the spring are tapered out to the edges and the whole thing highly polished...a wonderful thing.  I will try to post some pics of the lock in a day or two.

Dave Gross

[California Kid]

Sound like you have a great set of Hawken parts. That's a great barrel. I have one just like it.
I have a Roller lock and triggers on mine. Stamped inside Roller. Any way Bob Roller did make a copy of a T.
Gibbons lock for a late Hawken so it probably is  a Roller lock. Great stuff.
You have the makings of a classic Hawken craze period rifle.

[bigsky]

Dave B,
Thanks for posting the picture of the hollow rib.  It shows a detail that I never knew about ... that the "wings" of the rib did not lay against the lower flat, but actually extended beyond the angles of the octagon on the lower flat.
Kevin

[elk killer]

Bob Roller locks were some of the very best,,i even have one thats still in a plastic bubble wrap..thats all tapped and drilled,, but has never been assmbled..has the origianl price tag of $45.00 still on the package

[dave gross]

I appreciate the infor from Cal Kid and Elk Killer about Bob Roller....amazing quality for $45, even years ago, certainly nothing produced commercially today to compare.

Dave Gross

[J.D.]

Bob Roller made, and still makes super high quality custom locks, so you won't find parts readily available. I spoke to Bob a coupla months ago and he mentioned that he had received a lock he made in the 1970s for rebuild. The frizzen was worn out and the internals a little sloppy from wear, but all in all it was in decent shape for a lock seeing heavy use for all those years.

IMHO, your lock will last a coupla life times with good care and judicious lubrication.

[California Kid]

I thought he was still making locks, but wasn't sure. He used to be in Huntington WV.

[Roger B]

I have a Roller lock that is just this side of incredible & have a set of triggers on order from him.  He still makes locks, one of which is a flint lock based on the L & R Durs Egg externals for which he machines the internals.  I actually have two Roller locks, both clearly marked ROLLER in a semicircle on the back side of the plate.  Your barrel marked with the four Js is likely breeched with one of Bill's breechs which would make it an interesting barrel.  The Js were  the first letters of his daughter's names. Check the rifling twist; I'll bet its one in forty eight. The barrel will likely benefit from a Scotchbrite session. Nice stuff, & it should sell well if well executed.
Roger B.

[J.D.]

I thought he was still making locks, but wasn't sure. He used to be in Huntington WV.

Yep. He is still at it in Huntington.

[dave gross]

Your description of the Large barrel is spot on in all respects.  The breech was no doubt installed by Large as well.  The snail portion of the breech has a most delightfull curve just under the nipple..very stylish.  While searching for Hawken images today I found a pic of a rifle made by Tail Creek Trade Co which has a lock with a hammer exactly like the one on my lock.  I did a phone search for Bob Roller and found a listing for him in Huntington, WV.  He sure builds some nice stuff.

Dave Gross

[Sam Everly]

I did the same you are doing a few years back . My dad bought up some parts to build a Hawken in the late 60's. He messed up a stock and bought another from Dixie gun works but never started back . He had a H&H 1 1/8 barrel in 58 cal, a Cherry Corners lock and triggers. The half stock was walnut and after setting for 30 odd years was hard as a rock .I got all the parts and built it for him in 2000 . It turned out very nice and he even did a little work on it while staying at my home.  . I shot it in the gun builders match that year in Friendship and came in 2nd just .020 out of first not bad for a 150 yard off hand shot !     

[California Kid]

I built a Hawken using a Cherry Corners lock and  triggers, now that I think of it a few of them. They were good locks and triggers as well. I used Bill Large barrels and Douglas barrels for the Hawken rifles. Used Paris barrels for Kentucky rifles, before Don got into it.
Do you remember all this stuff Don? My Golden Mean dividers are broke right now, don't know what to do.

[eldeguello]

Bill Large made barrels in or near Ironton, OH.  His place was named the J.J.J.J. Ranch.  I know very little else about him, except that his barrels were highly regarded.  I happen to have two Hawken style percussion rifles with Large barrels-one a .45, the other a 50.  Both were made by the late Virgil Hartley of Indianapolis, IN. in the late 1960's.

The .50 barrel, named by Large "Old Bear Grease", was made 42" long and intended by Large as a barrel for a flintlock long rifle.  Hartley cut it to 32", converted it to percussion, and made a halfstock Hawken style rifle from it.  I once corresponded with Large about something or another, and in my letter told him about the use to which his barrel had been put.  His response led me to the conclusion that he was quite upset that his barrel had been cut off!

I have carried that 10" section of .50 Large barrel around with me all over the world since 1968, and am currently in the process of using it on a flintlock pistol.  Maybe this will ease Bill's spirit somewhat.  If only this pistol could be as nice as the rifles Hartley made with Bill's barrels.....    

After moving back up here to CNY last month, I discovered in my barn a curly maple stock blank that I bought from Russ Hamm in Crawfordsville, IN in 1970.  I wonder if I should try to make a rifle from it... It should be nicely seasoned by now!  It shows no splits or checking anywhere.