"Friendship Cheater"

[Kermit]

Can anyone expand on just what a "Friendship Cheater" sight is? I've read the rules, and am having a difficult time visualizing such sights. The rules also don't state whether the 6" ahead of the breech rule applies to the FC sights. And am I correct in my understanding that they are only to be applied to bench guns in any case? Also, am I correct in understanding that scopes are only allowed on slug guns, not on roundball bench rifles?

It's all new territory to me.....

[California Kid]

Range rules are on NMLRA website.

[Kermit]

Yup. Read 'em. That's why the question. I have no clear picture of what they look like, where they are mounted on the gun (fore and aft), or which "events" they are legal for. Somebody must have a photo? A link? I just can't "see" one based on this:

"5030–DEEP NOTCHED OR SLOTTED, (a.k.a “FRIENDSHIP CHEATER”) REAR OPEN SIGHT–Used on heavy bench rifle matches only.
This sight is actually a modified rear peep sight that may be mounted any place on the barrel, at the shooter’s option. There is no center hole
in the rear peep sight, but a narrow slot is cut in the top of a sighting blade or disk attached to the adjustable eye piece. The slot must be no wider at
the bottom than it is at the top. This sight may be used with any legal front open sight, including a globe with a post."

[okieboy]

 I believe that the 6" rule was developed because clever (but unscrupulous shooters) would mount their legally notched rear sight far back on the barrel and then lean in on it such that their hat brim would butt against the top of the sight and make it function as an aperture.

[Candle Snuffer]

Can anyone expand on just what a "Friendship Cheater" sight is? I've read the rules, and am having a difficult time visualizing such sights. The rules also don't state whether the 6" ahead of the breech rule applies to the FC sights. And am I correct in my understanding that they are only to be applied to bench guns in any case? Also, am I correct in understanding that scopes are only allowed on slug guns, not on roundball bench rifles?

It's all new territory to me.....

Kermit,

Go to this link and click on the State you're from and it will give you the listing for the NMLRA Field Rep in your State.  He or she should be able to get you the information you're looking for, or they will know who to direct you to.

http://www.nmlra.org/reps.asp

[Candle Snuffer]

Many people don't have an interest in organized target shooting for fear of failure.  This is why there are rules set forth for an even playing field.  All sports have rules weather it be, baseball, football, hocky, basketball, soccer, auto racing, archery, shooting, and the list goes on.  Some can rise to the challenge and compete, and some can't.  It's a personal choice and I salute those who do not fear taking up the challenge.  They help keep the shooting sports in the public eye as the public can still actually come and see the action of a target shooting event unfold.  Some come away with wanting to get involved while others draw the conclussion that they will never be able to compete for one reason or another. 

[Candle Snuffer]

How do you know Roundball if you don't go to shooting matches?  Rules are set down to follow.  Follow the rules and you'll be fine.  Don't follow the rules and there's a pretty good chance you're going to caught and disqualified.

Kermit asked a straight forward question on an NMLRA rule.  That's the first step to a good competitor.  The second step is knowing your competition's strong and weak points.  It's all part of the game to excell or complain.  Personally I'd rather excell and let the powers that be who enforce the rules do just that, enforce the rules.

[smokinbuck]

Kermit,
From all that I have heard, Okieboy has it right about the use of the "Friendship Cheater". I have seen a number of them and the hat trick looks like it would work. I have a round ball bench rifle, built and shot by George berry, that was shot with a scope. He held a number of records so I have to presume the use of a scope was legitimate.
Mark

[Daryl]

Both of you deliver good points.  The rule pushers eventually go home really ticked off or back to their camper shops to 'repair' a push that didn't get past the judges. The rules get tougher and more complicated as the rule pushers set the pace.

Had a parapalegic shooter on the chunk line last year, someone complained to me they thought he shouldn't be allowed to compete as he had a unfair advantage - sitting there all comfortable-like while shooting off cross sticks - I offered him the opportunity to shoot that way, but first I'd have to put an ice pic into his L5S1 joint first - he declined the sitting position for the much more stable prone with a solid rest.

Sometimes even those who are at a disadvantage are deemed to have an advantage - and so it goes.  That's competition.

[Larry Pletcher]

----------- Also, am I correct in understanding that scopes are only allowed on slug guns, not on roundball bench rifles?

It's all new territory to me.....

Kermit,
To answer your last question, the slug guns use glass scopes, but the round ball bench guns do not.  At Friendship, round ball bench guns use any metallic sights,....and the cheater sights mentioned above.
Regards,
Pletch

[okieboy]

 I also don't care for people whose aim is to collect the prizes by not getting caught breaking the rules. They should be watched for, found, asked to leave and not return. They are not real competitors. Real competitors are passionate and don't mind rules fairly applied and they for sure are not frightened of someone who needs some tolerance to be able to shoot. You can meet great competitors at a lot of shoots, The York Memorial has them in abundance. They will do their best to shoot better than you, but most of them would be glad to help you shoot your best. This kind of competitor does not want to shoot against poor shots, they want to shoot against the best. The good news is that for every cheat that you may encounter, you will encounter 20 or 30 or more shooters that represent what is good in our sport and good in general.

[Kermit]

Thank you Pletch! I wasn't looking for a discussion of whether rugby or football rules are the better or if cricket is a more gentlemanly game than baseball. I just needed to know what the dang balls look like!

Still would like to see one. Maybe I'll get back there to heaven one day and visit Friendship for a first-person look-see.

The bucket list grows.

[smokinbuck]

Kermit,
The "Friendship cheater" that I am familiar with was a square plate that replaced the round eye disk on a peep sight. It does not have the typical hole to sight through in the center but rectangular slots cut into each of the four sides of the square. The slots were of different sizes, depth and width, and when the slouch hat comes down over the top of the slot it creates a rectangular peep sight. According to the NMLRA rule book they are still legal in round  ball and heavy bench gun matchs.
Mark

[chapmans]

I have one, will post a pic tomorrow, if I can find it! Larry there is one Agg at Friendship for rb bench that is any sight including scopes! Agg V iirc!
Regards, Steve C.

[chapmans]

  Here is a photo of a "Friendship Cheater" it is only legal for the heavy bench guns, all others must be at least 8" from the breech!





 It is used in conjunction with a globe front sight with a post, you bury the globe sight in the notch, just touching both sides and the bottom of the slot, then use what ever hold you want on the bull, center or six o clock with the post! There are 4 different size slots/notches for different size globes.

   Questions? I'll answer if I can! BTW I have never used it, it came with my benchgun  that I have never used.

   Regards, Steve C.

[Larry Pletcher]

I reckon I should give an opinion here.  I feel that the term "Friendship Cheater" is a misnomer. I think it's simply the best way of getting a fully adjustable open sight installed on a big bench gun.  You already have an Olympic Redfield ready.  if you can adapt an open sight to the Olympic the problem is solved.  Since there are different distances and bulls, it helps to have different sight slots. 

I used to shoot bench at Friendship and may want to again.  I don't worry about aggregates, so I don't need an open sight for my Redfield.  If you do shoot the open sight match, this sight gives you no advantage, since all your competition uses it too.

Don't get me wrong.  Competition at Friendship is fierce, but...the same guys that beat you during the day will do programs at night giving out helpful hints.  In that way Friendship represents the best of our sport.  I'd guess we we all have seen that same level of competition coupled with assistance and friendships.

Regards,
Pletch

PS  I've never seen or heard of the hat trick until this topic.

[fdf]

Steven C.

Thanks for the photo, it is appreciated, it really does help to see what is discussed

Pletch,

My mentor told me years ago when you shoot in competition, there are some things to never deviate from:

1.  After the shoot, did you follow the rules, if so, you did what is required.
2.  You only shoot against yourself, not one other person matters.
3.  If you beat your best score on that target, you have won.
4.  If your name is called at the end of the day, see No. 3
5.  See No. 1 and repeat.
6.  Did you have fun, this is all important, not one other thing matters beyond
     safety.

A couple of Master Pistol shooters have worked with me to improve my shooting, I appreciate them.  Their help was on fundamentals. I have never been taught by a Master how to cheat.

[bob in the woods]

In my experience here, the ones who push the rules/cheat usually don't win any way. Not consistently anyway. They cheat, cause they are not good enough on their own.

[Daryl]

I take it, the slotted sight disk is for Metalic/No Peep.  In the normal 'full bore' SFC competition I am familiar with "Metalic" allows apertures, front and rear, no scopes. Any sight of course, allows all types sights. sounds as if the Friendship rules are the same, with the elimination of any 'Metalic".

[Larry Pletcher]

This Link takes you to the NMLRA rule book:

http://www.nmlra.org/pdfs/web_RangeRuleBook5-10.pdf

page 8-9 give the sight definitions.

Regards,
Pletch