Author Topic: help identify musket (Read 10766 times)

vtbuck223 · « **on:** May 20, 2011, 04:41:30 PM »

Hi All...this is my first post on this forum...though I have been reading for awhile. I have been looking for one of these to hang over the mantle for a long time...just came into possession of this rifle and knew that you all would be able to help identify it. I can't find a makers mark...if there was one on the barrel it is probably worn off. It seems to be .40 caliber and is 5 ft. long. There is no lock though there was a lock spring in the patch box....like someone had taken off an old lock intending to replace or repair...but never got around to it. Also...I want to put a lock on it... and do some minor restorations...any suggestions? Thanks Jeremy

vtbuck223 · « **Reply #1 on:** May 20, 2011, 04:48:44 PM »

A few more photos:

Longknife · « **Reply #2 on:** May 20, 2011, 05:03:03 PM »

WOW, it appears you may have a Lehigh Co. rifle there. It is in very good condition except for the missing parts which could be easily replaced. I suspect it was originaly a flintlock, A better photo of the lock mortice would tell. You really need to have a professional resto done as it could be damaged and hurt the value if done poorly......Ed

P.S. "musket" is a military firearm, this is a "rifle"......

Lucky R A · « **Reply #3 on:** May 20, 2011, 05:11:03 PM »

It looks like your rifle came from the Allamerangle School of gunbuilding, thus was probably made in northeastern Berks Co. or Northwestern Lehigh Co. It has a little of the look of one of the Angstadts or Stoffel Long etc. The gun was probably built 1820 or so. It likely was flint originally, due to the two screw lock mortise and what appears to be a clearance cut for a flint hammer. The side plate would have been flush fitted with the surrounding wood. It would have had some engraving and usually some type of border engraving, usually along the same lines as the patchbox engraving. It is a nice rifle and worthy of being put right. I am sure others will be able to refine the maker candidates.

Ron Luckenbill

Dale Campbell · « **Reply #4 on:** May 20, 2011, 05:17:14 PM »

My response was the same as Longknife's. WOW.

I am not qualified to do more than say listen to these folks. This rifle deserves a professional restoration, or to be left as is for a while longer. The "first do no harm" philosophy.

Care to tell us how it came to your possession?

Would you be willing to have these photos (and maybe some others) put in the ALR museum?

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #5 on:** May 20, 2011, 05:17:54 PM »

You found a real gem there. Reminds me of the Moll family rifles. I think that cheek inlay
and patchbox should make it a fairly simple attribution. If you have access to Chandler's
patchbox book, that might help. I thought the stock looked Berks County
myself. This one deserves a nice flintlock and replacement sideplate. Take a close hard
look at the barrel for the remnants of a signature using different lighting and angles, you
might get a surprise. I think it's worthy of a Brian Lamaster resto job. Thanks for sharing.

Lucky R A · « **Reply #6 on:** May 20, 2011, 05:18:39 PM »

Now that I look at the gun a bit more, I would more go for Jacob Georg as another good maker candidate.

Ron

Buck · « **Reply #7 on:** May 20, 2011, 06:03:26 PM »

Maybe Peter Neihart? Lehigh Valley. The stock, trigger guard, and patchbox architecture are very similar to this makers and the areas style. It appeara the barrel is heavily oxidized, have you tried to take a brass strip and clean the barrel flat where the makers mark normally would be ?

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #8 on:** May 20, 2011, 06:21:30 PM »

I second the question. How and where did you come across this?

JTR · « **Reply #9 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:23:50 PM »

Nice rifle, and possibly made by one of the Molls with that patchbox finale. Although could have been made by others as well.
Please don't scrape the crud off the barrel looking for a name.

If there is one there you'll likely be able to see it through the crud. Look on the top flat of the barrel between the rear sight and the breech. The name will likely be engraved, not stamped, and might just be two initials. Signed guns from this area are not common so don't be disapointed if you don't find anything.

A clear picture of the lock area will tell if it was originally a flint of not. I think it was most likely as it looks like the cut out for the flint hammer is there.
Finding an original lock might be a problem. Though the mortice looks like a common lock, they were made by so many makers, and all seem to be just a bit different than each other, that finding the exact fit might be almost impossable. Filing an original to fit is a possibility, as is fitting a modern lock to it if all else fails. I realize that's not the best choice, but Some lock is better than no lock.

Like the others have said, please don't scrub and shine it up just yet. Your rifle is in very nice original condition and has decent value. A good scrubbing and buffing can easily Reduce that value by half or more.

John

vtbuck223 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 20, 2011, 07:58:41 PM »

Thanks all for you excellent responses....glad you appreciate it as much as me. I'm adding a better picture as requested and also a picture of the broken spring that was in the patchbox. Dale, I would be honored to have the photos in the ALR museum. Let me know what if anything you need me to do for that. To answer the question of how I came in possession of: I had been advertising locally for a long time that I was looking for one of these...and somebody e-mailed me yesterday that there was one listed on craigslist...it had been on there for 2 days and remarkably was still there. I ran as fast as I could to get it....when the previous owner pulled it out of his car and uncovered it...I think I must have started shaking. He told me that someone else had contacted him about the gun but couldn't make up their mind. The man said that the gun had been left in a house that he bought years ago and that he had it hanging over his mantle before he decided to sell it. They were a nice couple (his wife was there too) and I think they were amused because I did not hide my excitement. Okay...I know from cleaning other guns that light engraving or stamping can quickly disappear under the "crud". Should I or shouldn't I attempt to clear it? If so how should I go about it? Buck suggested the "brass strip" method...please explain this to me in more detail. Thanks Jeremy

Collector · « **Reply #11 on:** May 20, 2011, 08:44:33 PM »

An extremely, extremely, nice find!

I would certainly recommend that you, personally, do absolutely nothing to this piece, given it's current condition. It really is on the cusp of potentially being a fine piece or being further reduced in wall-hanger status by inadvertent damage.

I submit, that you should (decide to) turn this longrifle over to a person who has the qualifications to do a professional level of restoration. This piece certainly deserves it and I'm convinced that you already know this. Not only will it enhance the appearance, but the value of this longrifle and your investment.

Attributing this longrifle to a master builder can wait for the time-being and would most certainly be revealed (or a higher probability anyway) during a professional restoration, without potential damage, caused by undue haste.

Some things are worth the wait.

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2011, 12:18:16 AM »

I agree with Mr Hansen. at this point in time do nothing but research. It can only increase it's value. You have a winning lottery ticket there, though the value is still undetermined. There are members on this board, and others that can restore it, thought that can affect value in both directions. Right now it's greatest value is as a study piece. You lucky bugger.

Bill

Buck · « **Reply #13 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:48:42 AM »

Another easy way to check for a makers name is take a piece of chalk and lightly run it across the barrel flat between the tang and the rear sight, when you are done just blow the chalk off.

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #14 on:** May 21, 2011, 03:26:38 PM »

Very nice! Berks County, as noted above it's definitely a Jacob George/Stoffel Long type rifle. There were a few others doing the same thing as well, w/ no signature and no carving one would have to do a really close comparative study of the engraving on the box.

Dphariss · « **Reply #15 on:** May 21, 2011, 05:21:10 PM »

Quote from: vtbuck223 on May 20, 2011, 07:58:41 PM

Thanks all for you excellent responses....glad you appreciate it as much as me. I'm adding a better picture as requested and also a picture of the broken spring that was in the patchbox. Dale, I would be honored to have the photos in the ALR museum. Let me know what if anything you need me to do for that. To answer the question of how I came in possession of: I had been advertising locally for a long time that I was looking for one of these...and somebody e-mailed me yesterday that there was one listed on craigslist...it had been on there for 2 days and remarkably was still there. I ran as fast as I could to get it....when the previous owner pulled it out of his car and uncovered it...I think I must have started shaking. He told me that someone else had contacted him about the gun but couldn't make up their mind. The man said that the gun had been left in a house that he bought years ago and that he had it hanging over his mantle before he decided to sell it. They were a nice couple (his wife was there too) and I think they were amused because I did not hide my excitement. Okay...I know from cleaning other guns that light engraving or stamping can quickly disappear under the "crud". Should I or shouldn't I attempt to clear it? If so how should I go about it? Buck suggested the "brass strip" method...please explain this to me in more detail. Thanks Jeremy

Very nice find. You are to be congratulated.
HOWEVER.
You would be well advised to leave this rifle as it is for the time being.
Please. DO NOT CLEAN IT!!!
Cleaning a rifle of this quality unless done by someone who KNOWS restoration is invariably a disaster.
"Cleaning" will all too often reduce the value and damage a historical piece.
This rifle really needs a PROFESSIONAL restoration or NOTHING. This will replace the lock and missing parts and stop any rust/decay.
DO NOT CLEAN IT, do not wax it, do not oil it.
Find someone with experience and a reputation for quality work of this type to examine it and give an opinion.
The finish on the wood, for example, is valuable for study if its still original. Start adding to it or taking it off and its either damaged, corrupted or lost.
These rifles have a value that transcends money. Far too many have been irreparably damaged by changes and "cleaning" done by people trying to increase the value or make them fit a collection or a preconceived but misguided idea. Getting one in this condition is a gift.

Please find an expert in the field to evaluate this wonderful rifle before proceeding.

Dan

jdm · « **Reply #16 on:** May 21, 2011, 05:27:21 PM »

I once owned a Stoffel Long rifle(unsigned I thought). It was pictured in Dillins book. Later when the barrel was taken off the name was on the bottom. I am not suggesting you yank the barrel off but if you have it restored at some time it would be worth a look. I am in Eric's camp, Stoffel Long or Jacob George.At the least somebody that worked with them. On a side note The Stoffel Long I had was pictured as flint in Dillins book that was published in 1922. It was a reconversion. Even back then! JIM

vtbuck223 · « **Reply #17 on:** May 21, 2011, 06:23:49 PM »

Let me start by saying it doesn't take too much to get me excited about any gun...but I am absolutely blown away by all of your responses. I know enough to know that when you all respond like that...then this is indeed something special. Thank you all for your kindness and help...I definitely need some direction with this one. Usually when I get a new gun...I'm like a kid on Christmans morning...can't wait to open it up. But...as you all suggested...I'm taking a deep breath....and will take this slow. I am following your threads to look at comparison rifles from the various makers...it's really cool. Any other insights that you all have would be much appreciated. I know people generally don't like to talk about values....but I need some of your help in order to make an informed decision about how to proceed. How much is the rifle worth as it is....what's a ballpark figure for a restoration...and what would it be worth after? This is what I really need to know before taking any further steps. I will add that I have never sold any of my guns...I don't buy and sell any of the things I collect to make a profit...I just collect them because I appreciate the history. As such I also realize that this gun does need to be properly taken care of. It has been suggested to me that there are members of this site who do good restoration....and can be trusted...this is something that I am strongly considering at this point. I appreciate your further help...I definitely need it. Thanks Jeremy

Eric Kettenburg · « **Reply #18 on:** May 21, 2011, 06:44:54 PM »

Jeremy - just my opinion, but your rifle does not need much. Regardless of what you do, I personally think you'd be best to take a minimalist approach. It does need a lock and a sideplate; make sure that when making a replacement sideplate, for example, someone makes one that *exactly* fits the existing mortise, no extra wood removal. The lock is a different issue you could look at a few ways; at the very least, it might look neat if someone just made a percussion conversion lock to *exactly* fit the mortice and just left it as a percussion conversion. No harm no foul - nothing would be changed. The next step up would be to yank the drum and make a replacement flintlock. This has proponents on both sides, frankly most would probably do this and it usually - if done very well - does not affect value in the least. OFten enhances it, in fact (again, reiterating that if done well) as most would prefer to see it in flint. OTher than that, assuming that it is not actively rusting or deteriorating, I'd just leave it alone and sure as $#*! would not buff, shine, polish, scrub or otherwise try to "improve" anything.

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #19 on:** May 21, 2011, 07:46:24 PM »

I agree with what's been already said about this rifle. Please don't make the mistake of trying to "improve it" by cleaning it, you could easily ruin a wonderful piece of history. I also recommend that you only let someone who has a good deal of experience restoring antique longrifles, replace the lock and side plate. As Eric said, it' important that who ever does the work doesn't remove any of the wood in the mortise of the side plate or lock, the new parts should fit the gun "precisely". Just my two cents.

Frank

A.Merrill · « **Reply #20 on:** May 26, 2011, 10:12:32 AM »

Some guys have all the luck.

AL

JTR · « **Reply #21 on:** May 26, 2011, 05:14:12 PM »

A question.
What makes this rifle a Berks County?

I, and some guys see a Lehigh (trigger guard, nose cap, PB, etc), yet Lucky RA and Eric see it as Berks county.

So Eric, Lucky, or anyone else, what is the difference to look for in a gun like this, to differentiate between Lehigh and Berks?

I should probably know this, but I don't.

John

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Author Topic: help identify musket (Read 10766 times)