Shooting off the shoulder

[54Bucks]

 This is a subject that has me baffled for some time now. As I just can't imagine how shooting any gun, whether it be one with a deep crescent butt or not, off the shoulder would result in anything resembling accuracy. Considering that a shooters line of sight couldn't line up with that of the bore when the butt is moved laterally off the shoulder. And I can't imagine it would resemble comfort. Many shooters that shoulder their guns prefer app. 1/4" cast-off. What is it that accomodates shooting off the shoulder ?

[roundball]

Never understood why people would want to do it either...I shoot all mine from the same place off the large bulk of my shoulder...whether a modern firearm or Flintlock...if a gun didn't fit where I couldn't do that I'd resell it, and have.

[bgf]

This is a subject that has me baffled for some time now. As I just can't imagine how shooting any gun, whether it be one with a deep crescent butt or not, off the shoulder would result in anything resembling accuracy. Considering that a shooters line of sight couldn't line up with that of the bore when the butt is moved laterally off the shoulder. And I can't imagine it would resemble comfort. Many shooters that shoulder their guns prefer app. 1/4" cast-off. What is it that accomodates shooting off the shoulder ?

I'll try, as I shoot this way much of the time, but I haven't given it that much thought in a while.  First, however, you've jinxed me for this afternoon's shooting match -- I'll be trying to figure out how it is happening, if by some freak occurrence my shooting "resembles accuracy" .  I think the short answer is you can turn your body a small amount and make up for the "lateral displacement" -- if the rifle fits at all, the sights line up just as easily as on one that is shouldered.  You also have a wider range of adjustment (by moving your arm up, down, back or forth) for drop and length of pull.  A bit more drop and pull length can be helpful in allowing you to keep your head up, though.  Fundamentally, I don't think it matters how you achieve sight alignment, as long as you are consistent and follow through.  Give it a try.  I don't see how anyone can shoot a rifle with a deep (or even fairly moderate) crescent buttplate shouldered more than a few times before they start jumping at every click!

[BrownBear]

I'm kinda gangly (6'4" with loooong arms) and left handed to boot.  A whole lot of guns don't fit me well, but I've usually managed to figure out how to make them work.  It's a matter of experimentation and practice, and of course what works best with each model.  It's a rare gun that fits me "right," unless it's a custom built for me.  The answer of course is to shoot any model enough to problem solve, and recognize that you're likely to be using slightly different holds as you move from one to the next.  Guns that don't fit me right have to be shot a whole lot prior to hunts, and usually to the exclusion of other "competing" models in my rack.  For hunts anyway, I need that quick instinctive mount for accurate shooting, and I don't get it if I'm flipflopping between styles in the days leading up to a hunt.

[Dphariss]

Never understood why people would want to do it either...I shoot all mine from the same place off the large bulk of my shoulder...whether a modern firearm or Flintlock...if a gun didn't fit where I couldn't do that I'd resell it, and have.

Much of this is personal preference of course.
 

With the severe hooked plate the shooting hand has little to do but touch the trigger.
The percussion Schuetzen guns often had muitlple lever set triggers that were so light that tipping the rifle muzzle up would fire the trigger.
Some had a thin wire as the actual trigger and a heavier "trigger" that was actually a finger rest.


The crescent buttplate is used the same way with a similar stance. The crescent is designed the index on the arm or right at the shoulder joint. It will be at the same spot every time vertically with no conscious positioning needed.
They are not meant to be shot like a SHOTGUN as are most modern rifles with "shotgun" butttocks are. This is why shotguns don't have deep crescent butts. The crescent buttplate STANCE that works best for most people  would interfere with the "swing" of the shotgun.
I have an English sporting rifle type and a swivel breech with a early flat butt. Both these are shot off the shoulder and the 16 bore English is shot with a shotgun stance. BECAUSE IT KICKS HARD and if it gets on the arm it WILL hurt.
If you shoot a hard kicking gun with a crescent butt  or with much of any rifle  with a buttplate like a late squirrel rifle you will get bruised.
I always shoot my Don King Hawken off the arm, offhand this is with the body turned so that the rifle is ACROSS the chest. I shoot the swivel the same way. I shoot the 16 bore more like a shotgun.
I won a lot of 50 ft 22 matches shootng offhand with my left shoulder pointed at the targets and it not crescent butt. I shoot a lot of rifles in this manner
I would post a photo but Photobucket is being difficult or the site is down..
See if this works.

This is an "NMLRA legal" stance as opposed to turning even more and resting the upperarm against the side of the chest. Note how I change my stance before making the shot. The change rotates the shooting shoulder away from the target.

 This would not be NMLRA legal for a couple of reasons. Upper arm is rested for one thing.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.230040523676849.86717.100000127103372&l=0737ac325b

Note this "off the arm" offhand stance
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/unit/internationalrifle.asp

Dan

[hanshi]

From the shoulder is how I learned and found it interesting when I learned some shooters/rifles used the arm instead.  Regardless of butt plate configuration, I shoot from the shoulder. 

I recall that when I bought a very early Marlin 45/70 not long after they came to the market, a few shots with my standard (heavy) handload brought tears to my eyes and my shoulder went numb.  It had a deep crescent butt plate.  I had it sawed off flat and a shotgun recoil pad installed.

I've gotten sore shoulder from a couple of curved butt flinters and like roundball, if I couldn't stand to shoot it, I'd get rid of it.  Though it would be awkward for me, I can see how some configurations would perform well from off of the shoulder.

[roundball]

I don't see how anyone can shoot a rifle with a deep (or even fairly moderate) crescent buttplate shouldered more than a few times before they start jumping at every click!

Shot several calibers and gauges with mine, well over 11,000+ times...never a problem.
The central curve of the crescent is against the large ball of my shoulder.
The toe is down into the crease of the armpit.

[Pete G.]

I shot on a rifle team in school and the rifles had replaceable butt plates. Offhand position plate had a hook that extended under the arm, similar to a Schuetzen. The left hand supports the rifle. Same thing applies to an over the course rifle in high power competition. The guys at Camp Perry manage to quite often shoot with something resembling accuracy offhand at 200 yds in the National Match course.

[Larry Pletcher]

Shooting MLs off the shoulder seems natural to me.  I don't remember doing it another way.  The Ohio half stock I have started will need to be shot that way, but that's not a problem because that's what i'm used to doing. 

Since different PA schools have different stock profiles, I'd guess that there will be shooting styles based on regional styles.  For example, I held an great fitting Allan Martin schimmel at CLA.  Would you fellows shoot it off the shoulder?  It felt normal for me to hold it that way.

Regards,
Pletch

[bgf]

I don't see how anyone can shoot a rifle with a deep (or even fairly moderate) crescent buttplate shouldered more than a few times before they start jumping at every click!

Shot several calibers and gauges with mine, well over 11,000+ times...never a problem.
The central curve of the crescent is against the large ball of my shoulder.
The toe is down into the crease of the armpit.

By "shouldered" I meant what Dan called "shotgun style"  I think we have a difference of terminology. 

[roundball]

If instead of on the shoulder you meant "Inside" the shoulder, then that changes everything.

Yes, the sharp toe of a curved butt plate into the chest pocket inside the ball of the shoulder would make anybody wince...

[Don Getz]

54.......I have shot trap & skeet for over 40 years, and rifles since I was about 12 years old.   Most of the guns I have shot  have been shot off of my shoulder, just as you describe.   However, from your statement, I must assume you have
never looked at and held an original Bedford County rifle, or some of those late period muzzleloaders from that area of
Pennsylvania.  Many of them require placing that little buttplate on your arm, it's the only way you can shoot them.  That
being said, most of them have heavy barrels and small calibres...............Don

[54Bucks]

 Thanks to bgf. His 2nd reply addressed my confusion by explaining that the shooter simply swivels/rotates clockwise until the line of sights come in. Now I sure hope his shooting was not jinxed. And I also hope people realize this was not to disparge those who shoot off the shoulder. Nor was it intended to make a competition of different shooting styles.
 I should have prefaced my original post by explaining that all my shooting has always been done with the butt actually to the inside of the ball of the shoulder,which I consider on the shoulder. My vision of shooting off the shoulder had the butt somewhere on the upper arm  outside of the shoulder ball joint.
 And Don, no I have not handled nor shot any Bedford style rifles, certainly no heavy barreld original. Even though my home is here in what would have been Bedord county back when they were in their heyday. They have since formed Blair Co. from parts of ol' Bedford and Huntingdon Co. I wonder what the militia leaders thought when the Bedford boys showed up with their heavy barreled light cal. rifles?

[M. Wheland]

PM sent

Mark

[bgf]

Thanks to bgf. His 2nd reply addressed my confusion by explaining that the shooter simply swivels/rotates clockwise until the line of sights come in. Now I sure hope his shooting was not jinxed. And I also hope people realize this was not to disparge those who shoot off the shoulder. Nor was it intended to make a competition of different shooting styles.
 I should have prefaced my original post by explaining that all my shooting has always been done with the butt actually to the inside of the ball of the shoulder,which I consider on the shoulder. My vision of shooting off the shoulder had the butt somewhere on the upper arm  outside of the shoulder ball joint.
 And Don, no I have not handled nor shot any Bedford style rifles, certainly no heavy barreld original. Even though my home is here in what would have been Bedord county back when they were in their heyday. They have since formed Blair Co. from parts of ol' Bedford and Huntingdon Co. I wonder what the militia leaders thought when the Bedford boys showed up with their heavy barreled light cal. rifles?

54,
At first I couldn't tell if you were leading with the question or not, but it is confusing, so I thought you really did want to try to figure it out.  Glad that helped.  Dan's material was most interesting, esp. the Shuetzen one (that would make a great hobby also!).  After RB and I seemed to differ on "shoulder", I tried to find a clear and authoritative source on this, but didn't have much success with the time I had.  Anyway, here is the way the terms seem to be used -- if anyone has a correction or additional information, they shouldn't hesitate to pitch in.

"shoulder", ["on the shoulder?"], ["inside the shoulder?"]: in the pocket or crease between deltoid and pectoral, possibly out to the ball of the shoulder; this is pretty clearly defined for shotgun, but rifle usage is looser.  Needs a relatively flat buttplate, best for heavy recoil.
"off the shoulder": anywhere from the ball (middle) of the shoulder joint down the deltoid; mildly to moderately curved buttplate
"off the arm": somewhere above the bulge of the bicep?  not really clear where "off the shoulder" ends and "off the arm" begins; deep crescent buttplate.  I don't know anything about the Bedfords except that they look cool, but I suspect they are perfect nestled in between the bicep and deltoid.


PS. You didn't jinx me; I didn't end up shooting, but it had nothing to do with you .

[Dphariss]

54.......I have shot trap & skeet for over 40 years, and rifles since I was about 12 years old.   Most of the guns I have shot  have been shot off of my shoulder, just as you describe.   However, from your statement, I must assume you have
never looked at and held an original Bedford County rifle, or some of those late period muzzleloaders from that area of
Pennsylvania.  Many of them require placing that little buttplate on your arm, it's the only way you can shoot them.  That
being said, most of them have heavy barrels and small calibres...............Don

The Vincent is another that can't be shot off the shoulder as I would define it.
I define the shoulder as the "pocket" formed with the arm raised so he elbow it at shoulder level or close.
My first ML had a very similar plate and requires being shot off the arm, my 1960s DGW "Squirrel Rile" was very similar IIRC.
Dan

[Dphariss]

OK I did some searching on anatomy.
The shoulder "pocket" is formed between the deltoid and pectoral muscles when the elbow is raised to shoulder level.

Here is a "Gov't spec" shooting coat. Bought it at a yard sale. Recoil pads, pad for the sling, elbow pads.
Note the recoil pad extending onto the arm.

In this case the "pocket" is about centered on the rectangular shoulder pad. Between the deltoid and pectoral.

Yes the pectoral is really in this area but raising the arm forms a pocket between the deltoid and upper rib cage.
This is where the buttstock is supposed to go when shooting  a shotgun or shooting a shotgun butt rifle when prone or sitting or kneelling.  Offhand is different and in most disciplines results in a stance that is a modification, if not identical to the old schuetzen stance with a "hook" under the shooting arm and the non-shooting elbow braced on the side of the chest.
As I previously indicated the NMLRA, at least SFAIK, does not allow this. So the stance in NMLRA offhand is somewhat different.
The NRA BPCR silhouette rules allow any stance but ban deep crescent buttplates, 1 1/2"  is max IIRC.
So we have different disciplines, different shouldering for different shooting positions and different peoples use of those stances.
I will state this. It is very difficult to win an offhand match shooting your rifle like a shotgun if shooting against people using the Schuetzen stance, all things being equal its impossible. I suspect this is why its is or was banned in NMLRA competition. Someone likely used it to out shoot some folks in a position to make such rule changes.
It is proven by the fact that most offhand disciplines use a form of this stance and shoot off the arm.
This stance also allows the use of a heavier and thus most stable offhand rifle.
For those that doubt that the schuetzen stance is more accurate put a 8x-10x scope on a rifle and then test various stances for "wobble" on a 50ft 22 range. I used to shoot 19th century SS 22LR at 50 ft as practice for BPCR silhouette in competition with others doing the same thing. Stance, just a seemingly minor difference in how the feet are placed, can make a considerable difference in accuracy.
Also a 100 shot 200 yard offhand match is easier to do with the schuetzen stance. But this is not often done with flintlocks.
I would also point out that most "American" rifles prior to 1790-1800 had pretty flat plates.

And finally its one of those Kawasaki "Different strokes for different folks" things.
But you 40 and under types probably won't remember this slogan
Dan

[Daryl]

A shot off the pocket formed between the actual shoulder -ball or knotch and the deltoid muscle, for me is a deliberately aimed shot - even with the shotgun butt. When hunting, this rifle is mounted and the shot taken as a shotgun style, moving central and the butt more on the Pectoral muscle. With this rifle, the situation dictates the actual hold. I suspect Dan's 16 bore does the same.
Edited - same time post - Yup.

[Dphariss]

A shot off the pocket formed between the actual shoulder -ball or knotch and the deltoid muscle, for me is a deliberately aimed shot - even with the shotgun butt. When hunting, this rifle is mounted and the shot taken as a shotgun style, moving central and the butt more on the Pectoral muscle. With this rifle, the situation dictates the actual hold. I suspect Dan's 16 bore does the same.
Edited - same time post - Yup.

I tell anyone shooting it to shoulder it like a shotgun.

Dan