Rifles vs SMOOTH Rifles

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Never having fired or actually handled a smooth rifle, I don't quite get it. As I understand it smooth rifles evolved either as bores wore out? Don't know, or as larger game got scarcer or gone, hunters had barrels reemed out smooth to allow the use of shot for smaller game, so I understand all that.  My questions are: 1. What is the maximum range before accuracy with a patched round ball drops off?  2. Since rifleing helps displace fouling in the barrel when at the range, is loading and firing repeatedly more difficult with a smoothie than with a rifle? 3. Do you smoothie shooters actually shoot shot charges in your smooth rifles. Just askin.

[Ezra]

Several years ago, when I was making a Chambers kit (their smooth rifle) a gentleman on this board made some interesting and germane comments.  From those conversations I believe the following.  A longarms barrel is either smoothbore or rifled.  To me, this is the over riding characteristic that determines whether it is called rifle or smoothbore.  To me, when one calls a particular firearm a smooth rifle it seems an oxymoron.  I recognize the said firearm can have other characteristics of a "rifle", like a triggerguard that is representative of a traditional rifle style or even a patchbox.  Nevertheless, it is a smoothbore and does not have a rifled bore.  Just my two cents.  As always, I am willing to be corrected...again    by the extensive knowledge base that resides here.

Regards your questions:

1.) Most smoothbores are as accurate as rifles out to about 50 yards.  Maybe 100.  After that, it's a crapshoot.
2.) On the contrary, smoothbores are MUCH easier to reload in the field than rifled firearms as there is no rifling to impead the loading process.  Smoothies are much easier to clean as well.
3.) Yes


Ez

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Ezra, I fully agree with your comment that smooth rifle is an oxymoron, that is what my question is getting at. Why a smooth rifle, Why not a fowler or shotgun. 

As far as easier loading than a rifle, I don't understand. if a Smoothie and a rifle are same say 50cal. shooting same ball and patch combo, shouldn't the smoothie be harder to load because there is nowhere to displace fowling. That was one of the main reasons rifles were grooved in the first place, to displace fouling.

[Kermit]

"Smooth rifle" seems to me to have come about due to a lack of imagination. We've got names for all sorts of other muzzleloading guns--fowler (actually a wrongheaded term too, since a fowler is the person going fowling and the gun is a fowling piece), musket, fusil, jaeger, blunderbuss, etc--so I have no idea why such an oxymoronic term evolved to call a smoothbore with a rear sight a "smooth rifle."

Shoots ball, shoots shot. Try that with your rifle. Mine gets loaded with either, intended target dependant.

[roundball]

My questions are:
1. What is the maximum range before accuracy with a patched round ball drops off?

Don't know the max...I've always just zeroed mine at 50yds for my woods hunting, where in the case of deer, the shots are usually in the 25-50yd range...and shot loads for small game even closer;

2. Since rifling helps displace fouling in the barrel when at the range, is loading and firing repeatedly more difficult with a smoothie than with a rifle?

I've never found that to be the case with mine...shooting a round of 25 clay targets with lubed OP wads, I don't wipe between shots at all.

3. Do you smoothie shooters actually shoot shot charges in your smooth rifles.

I got my smoothies primarily for the purpose of shooting shot...small game, wingshooting, turkeys, etc...with the built in 'back-up' capability for deer hunting if something happened to a Flintlock rifle during the deer season...I always first set mine up for PRB at 50yds, then get into shot load development.

One observation that seems visible to me about making the distinction between a "smoothbore" and a "smooth rifle"...is the architecture / design...and I may be wrong, just explaining how I see it:

The term smoothbore usually seems to be used when an individual is referring to smoothbore 'fowlers' (fowling pieces  ) with their unique "fowling piece" stock design, and smooth barrels usually without a rear sight.

The term 'smooth rifle' tells me that an individual is talking about a long gun that has a rifle architecture / design to it, and a barrel that is smooth with a rear sight.

We probably all use the terms interchangeably from time to time...I try to say 'smooth rifle' when referring to mine, unless I also add in the phrase Early Virgina, which automatically identifies it as having a rifle architecture / design.

Just my .02 cents on the matter...

  

[Ezra]

Ezra, I fully agree with your comment that smooth rifle is an oxymoron, that is what my question is getting at. Why a smooth rifle, Why not a fowler or shotgun.  

As far as easier loading than a rifle, I don't understand. if a Smoothie and a rifle are same say 50cal. shooting same ball and patch combo, shouldn't the smoothie be harder to load because there is nowhere to displace fowling. That was one of the main reasons rifles were grooved in the first place, to displace fouling.

OK, let's see if I can explain it.  As I understand it this is the deal.  Let's start with a smoothbore .50 caliber.  The bore diameter is .50 caliber, and I would use around a .490 ball and a patch of say, .010 thickness.  Note, undersized ball and patch that is somewhat compressable.  Easy to get down bore even after a number of rounds.  Easy to clean because there is no rifling to catch all the goopy $#@*.  Just a smooth pipe.  Easy.

OK, now the .50 rifled barrel.  My groove diameter is .50 caliber.  The lands diameter is say. .495.  You use a .490 ball and a .010 patch and it is obvious that you are going to have more difficulty ramming that ball home.  Particularly after the bore becomes fouled.

Certainly there are guys here who can speak better to this than I.  Anyway, that is my understanding.  Good luck, and yes, I use and love smoothies.  Besides, I always have a ready excuse if I miss...

Note:  I most emphatically reserve the right to be completely wrong on this.  Particularly the rifling bore/grove depth thing.  Like I said, I'm a smoothbore guy cause its simple...like me. 


Ez

[roundball]

I always understood bore diameter is measured land to land...patch material is between the ball and the lands...with the excess folds going down into the grooves where they act as tillers following the grooves twist, providing the rotational twist to the ball.

IE: I bought two identical GM x .62cal smooth barrels, and sent one to Ed Rayl to simply add rifling...bore diameter remained the same.

[northmn]

Here we go again.  A true smooth rifle is indistingusable from a rifle on the exterior.  John Taylor wrote about hunting elephants during the war when he could not get ammo for his cartridge gun. He used a smooth 10 bore that was built like a rifle.  5 drams of powder and a round ball. He was actually somewhat impressed with it as it was accurate enough for its purpose and was easier cleaning than a rifle would have been.  I built up a "smooth rifle" but it is not quite a true representative as it is a 20 bore trade gun barrel.  Seemed like a good idea at the time but I would have been as happy with a "fowling piece" with sights.   It will goup well enough to certainly take a deer out to 75 yards as I can get 3-4 inch groups with it.  My 58 will group nearly an inch at range so it is not as accurate as a rifle.  Even at 50 yards you would be in trouble as I have shot all shots touching buffalo sticks targets with a rifle.  They are accurate enough for game hunting.  Frank Marshall, the cast bullet guru used to ask some people that had to have super tight groups if they 'were hunting deer or trying to shoot cockroaches at 100 yards"  If you do not use shot, then you are either shooting competition or better off with a rifle.  In competition they limit you to no rear sight, which is an interesting rule as about as many smooth bores had sights as did not in the early days.  A lot were add ons.  
Many early smooth rifles were in smaller bores like 44 so some were built that way on purpose.  Why is anybodys guess, but it could have been a desire to shoot both shot and economy.  The little 410 gets a lot of game today and a small bore using shot is still effective at very close ranges.  
I am finishing off one now and will not build another as they are orphans for todays use.  With the exception of Roundball's use on turkeys and squirrels, in which a shot load guided by sights has an advantage, they make a poor fowling piece and do not balance nor carry as nice. They are not that competitive agains rifles and not permitted in smoothbore competitions. But I would put sights on the fowling piece.  Ezra, after this I am going to call them a fowler to save time typing.

DP

[Dphariss]

Ezra, I fully agree with your comment that smooth rifle is an oxymoron, that is what my question is getting at. Why a smooth rifle, Why not a fowler or shotgun. 

As far as easier loading than a rifle, I don't understand. if a Smoothie and a rifle are same say 50cal. shooting same ball and patch combo, shouldn't the smoothie be harder to load because there is nowhere to displace fowling. That was one of the main reasons rifles were grooved in the first place, to displace fouling.

Smooth bore requires a smaller ball or a thinner patch.
I don't think that fouling problems, based on the one I had, are that big a deal.

I have never been able to figure out the smooth rifle thing either though they would have been cheaper and would a allow someone who could not shoot well enough or see well enough to take advantage of a rifle to have a gun with a box and carving and such at a reduced price???

We do have a mention of a smooth rifle in Reedy's ledgers in Kindig but we really have no idea if it was without rifling or without carving and thus was "smooth". Just some supposition...
Dan

[roundball]

A true smooth rifle is indistingusable from a rifle on the exterior. 

That's how I've come to see it as well...and truth be known, for the kind of hunting I do in thick east coast woods, and weekend fun shooting at the range, I could sell off eveything else and just keep the .54 & .62cal Virginia smooth rifles...have a range of versatility considering power, economy, and backup...be happy as a clam

[rich pierce]

50-60-70 yards is the best you can expect for deer hunting accuracy.  After that it's wishful thinking.  We know that there were smooth rifles made that way on purpose.  We can speculate that cost, versatility and intended purpose were reasons they were made, but do not really know.  We don't really need to figure it out either.  We can just choose to have and shoot one, or not.  As far as boring out a rifle to become a smooth rifle, it was done, and we don't know why either.  It could be that a .44 or larger rifle is not a real squirrel or small game rifle, and that the life of the old gun was extended by boring out to smooth so the kids could hunt a little in the woods.  For sure Civil War muskets were made smoothies and sold by tens of thousands to be cheap farm guns.  Farm boys had no need to be shooting minie bullets at squirrels.

[Daryl]

Never having fired or actually handled a smooth rifle, I don't quite get it. As I understand it smooth rifles evolved either as bores wore out? Don't know, or as larger game got scarcer or gone, hunters had barrels reemed out smooth to allow the use of shot for smaller game, so I understand all that.  My questions are: 1. What is the maximum range before accuracy with a patched round ball drops off?  2. Since rifleing helps displace fouling in the barrel when at the range, is loading and firing repeatedly more difficult with a smoothie than with a rifle? 3. Do you smoothie shooters actually shoot shot charges in your smooth rifles. Just askin.

in my opinion

1/. - in regards smooth rifles - maximum range of a patched round ball is regulated by it's accuracy.  The accurate range is much closer than the potential of the round ball itself.  The larger the ball - the greater the the useable range IF accuracy accompanies it. Most smoothbores, smoothrifles or those with only one sight are finished, accuracy wise, at inside 80 yards, in regards a kill zone of, say 10" in diameter.  Many people cannot shoot a 10" group at 80 yards with a rifle, let along a gun that lacks the precision of a rifle, ie; smoothrifle or smoothbore. Most times, a person's own accuracy range is much less than that of the gun itself.

2/. - Loading for either is virtually identical in my experience. I shoot a smaller ball in a smoothbore with a heavy patch. I do not use an material for patches thinner than about .018" in any gun.  My smooth 20 bore, actually .615"- a true 20 at the muzzle uses a .595" ball with a .0215" ticking patch. Loading is easy - and 80th shot loads as easily as the 1st.- no wiping.

My rifles all use balls that are .005", give or take a thousanth, smaller than the bore, with a patch that is .0215" to .030" in thickness depending on which rifle it is. Only the .32 is the annomoly here,using a bal that is .008" smaller than the bore, with a .0225" denim patch. All of my rifles load easily and as easily for the 80th shot as the 1st- I see no difference- except - a large bore smoothie, or my .69 rifle allows the use of paper ctgs., which expidites loading to under 10 seconds- if you want a speed comparrison. In this case, the rifle is just as fast as the fastest method for smoothbores, yet holds the same accuracy as with a patched ball, which gives THAT rifle and effective accuracy and killing range on moose - past 200yards. It is the ultimate hunting rifle and calibre, in my most humble, of course. - (actually, nothing humble about it)

3/. - I've not used smoothbores that much, but have used both round ball and shot in both. the .44 cal. and the 20 bore. The .44 was a 1/2 stocked smoothrifle, while the 20 is a smoothbore 1/2 stocked fowler.  I fired a total of 20 rounds of shot out of the 44- winning out local rondy trap shoot with it, against choked 12 and 10 bore doubles.  Seveal years ago, I borrowed a 12 bore double and shot the trap shoot with it and won, then bought and subsequently sold the gun.  I have fired a total of about 25 rounds of shot out of my 20 bore, winning the trap shoot last year at our local rondy.  The 44 smoothrifle (now gone) and 20 bore shoot/shot patched round balls mostly, only shot when shooting clay birds.
yeah - I was bragging.

[Dphariss]

Here we go again.  A true smooth rifle is indistingusable from a rifle on the exterior.  John Taylor wrote about hunting elephants during the war when he could not get ammo for his cartridge gun. He used a smooth 10 bore that was built like a rifle.  5 drams of powder and a round ball. He was actually somewhat impressed with it as it was accurate enough for its purpose and was easier cleaning than a rifle would have been.  I built up a "smooth rifle" but it is not quite a true representative as it is a 20 bore trade gun barrel.  Seemed like a good idea at the time but I would have been as happy with a "fowling piece" with sights.   It will goup well enough to certainly take a deer out to 75 yards as I can get 3-4 inch groups with it.  My 58 will group nearly an inch at range so it is not as accurate as a rifle.  Even at 50 yards you would be in trouble as I have shot all shots touching buffalo sticks targets with a rifle.  They are accurate enough for game hunting.  Frank Marshall, the cast bullet guru used to ask some people that had to have super tight groups if they 'were hunting deer or trying to shoot cockroaches at 100 yards"  If you do not use shot, then you are either shooting competition or better off with a rifle.  In competition they limit you to no rear sight, which is an interesting rule as about as many smooth bores had sights as did not in the early days.  A lot were add ons. 
Many early smooth rifles were in smaller bores like 44 so some were built that way on purpose.  Why is anybodys guess, but it could have been a desire to shoot both shot and economy.  The little 410 gets a lot of game today and a small bore using shot is still effective at very close ranges. 
I am finishing off one now and will not build another as they are orphans for todays use.  With the exception of Roundball's use on turkeys and squirrels, in which a shot load guided by sights has an advantage, they make a poor fowling piece and do not balance nor carry as nice. They are not that comptitive agains rifles and no permitted in smoothbore competitions. But I would put sights on the fowling piece.  Ezra, after this I am going to call them a fowler to save time typing.

DP

Taylor and the 10 bore:
Taylor describes:
"It was a single barrel, smooth-bore, caplock gun of good grade for its day and looked as though it had had very little use or handling".  It was "regulated for 6 drams" and this told him it was a 10 bore.
It as not what Americans would call a smooth rifle. There were a great many smooth bore guns used for heavy game in India/Africa in the 19th Century. Dangerous game was often shot at ranges of feet. And the British for a considerable period of time were making large bore rifles with twists so fast that charges had to greatly reduced, 60-80 grains for 10-12 bore rifles, enough to make them useless for shooting large game.
The English guns of this type were not only stocked like shotguns (as almost all English rifles were as well) but often WERE shotguns with short barrels. See F C Selous' book "A Hunters Wandering in Africa" his 4 bores were shotguns 2 of which were made by Hollis and were far too light for the use Selous put them too.
I really wish we had a picture of the gun Taylor used. I suspect that it was basically a heavy fowler with a short barrel.
It may or may not have had a rear sight. No way of knowing at this point. If I had to guess I would guess a rear sight. But its only supposition.
Regulated for 6 drams it was obviously a medium heavy game ball gun and likely dated to 1850-70.
This account in "Pondoro" is well worth reading if the book is available it starts on page 69 in my copy.
Check your local library. If the librarian is not too PC (many are) they may have a copy.

Getting inside peoples heads to find out why the smooth rifle was made is impossible so we do a lot of guessing

Dan
Dan

[Daryl]

Judging by the weight of gun and weight of this H. Whall's barrels at the breech (1.375"), this gun appears to be a ball and shot gun, as described in J. Taylor's notes in Dan's post. It possesses only one sight, the bead at the front.  It's weight is an even 10 pounds, much heavier than a mere 11 bore would weigh if designed for shot.  It's 36" barrel shows it was designed also for shot, as many strickly ball guns made do with much shorter barrels.

For those who think their modern production cap locks are breeched properly, check the hammer/nipple relationship on this antique.

 I used this gun for a smoothbore round ball event at Hefley Creek in 2008, I think it was, and placed 2nd with it on the 22 target course, hitting 17, I think it was. My tie breaker was dead centre - stroke of luck, that. 100gr. 2F, .715" ball and .025" denim patch. On the clay bird target, shot with shot, I flubbed and only broke 1 out of 2 birds,thrown singly.

[flintriflesmith]

Oxymoron or not the term "smooth rifle" or "smooth rifle gun" is what they were called in the late 18th and early 19th centuries.

The folks building them and using them knew what it meant without pages of Internet messages! Get over it.

Gary

[Kermit]

 

[Leatherbelly]

   I love them all! Fancy or plane. Throw in the fowling guns and tradeguns!
   Smooth rifles are sweet. As fancy as any rifled rifle, just smooth. No problem with that,just shoot to suit! In the day, maybe my farmland was adjacent to an old forest fire burn just lousy with deer.Smoothrifle would shine in the thick stuff.Probably save  some money too in the overall cost,especially in the day of hand rifling.
  Now on the other hand, if my little farm plot bordered on old growth, I'd probably go with a rifle. Under virgin old growth, not much underbrush would have existed so long shots were available.
  RCA shows quite a few smooth rifles.Some may have been freshed out to smooth,others appear not. My impression is:- builders built what the customer wanted (builders style,customers physical dimensions), just as we do today. Be it smooth or rifled...customers choice.

[northmn]

We postulate that they may have been less expensive.  I wonder how much

DP

[rich pierce]

At least a day's work for smith and apprentice to rifle a barrel.

[northmn]

From what others have told me, a fowler was about 1/3 the cost of a rifle, even less. So if a rifle would go for about $15 or so then a smooth rifle might go for $14   $1.00 was a lot of money back then, about a days work.

DP

[roundball]

I'm not understanding the numbers...

[Kermit]

Way I learned it, a third of $15 would be $5. Maybe it's the new arithmetic?

[northmn]

A fowler was about one third of a rifle or $5.00.  A smooth rifle has every feature of a rifle so I wonder what the discount was for a smooth rifle as a rifle was at $15.00.  Maybe a dollar for a dayswork By the 1820's barrels were often purchased ready made.  Maybe a discount on the barrel

DP

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

So all that being said make one of each .... then you'll be hooked and make one a little different and one........

[Kermit]

Just to keep this going ( ), the NMLRA calls these things "sighted smoothbores" for competition designation purposes.