Seeking advice on short fowler

[Roxie_L]

I wasn’t sure what forum this question was best suited to so I apologize if this isn’t a good place for it.
Although I have been shooting muzzleloaders for many years, I admit that I’m still not familiar with all the different styles so I’m looking for some help. I’d like to have a traditional style gun, doesn’t need to be exactly historically correct but at least something that’s not going to look modern. I put this out of my mind for a while until I saw the question on powder to shot ratios. I have two fowlers, a 16ga and 24ga that I absolutely love but they’re not well suited to some of the heavily vegetated areas I hunt, they are just too long for easy maneuvering so I’d like something shorter. Is there a traditional style that has a length somewhere in between a fowler and a blunderbuss? I prefer the fowler styling but would like to have a barrel that is 28-30 inches long. I would like a 20ga because the only one I have loads from the wrong end and turned into a major project. Okay, I’ll explain that one. I let a dealer talk me into this youth model Remington 870 which was perfect except for the stock that was too short. He said he could put a thicker recoil pad on it, he made a complete mess of things trying to put two recoil pads together to make the LOP longer. Not only did it look terrible but I hate recoil pads because they catch on clothing. I ended up having a new butt stock made to fit me and while it’s now a gun I like, it’s not a muzzleloader. I’m open to all ideas and suggestions but with a few limitations: I need a LOP around 13-3/4 inches give or take a little depending on the stock style, bore no bigger than 16ga and the barrel profile must be light and fast handling, right handed and flintlock.  
Ciao!
Roxie

[greybeard]

Hello Roxie;  Welcome aboard the forum . A wealth of onfo here. A nice little 20 ga English  1/2 stock flint sporting gun should suite you just fine unless you have your mind set on an American style gun.  Just a thought.   Cheers   Bob

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Wow, this must be the night-owl club!! Welcome Roxie

Roxie, What Bob said, or you might go with a 20 ga. SxS shotgun.....  I also see no reason why you couldn't have a short barreled fowler... even for historical gunmakers I am sure that form sometimes followed function!! What type of game are you hunting in the thick brush??

[James Rogers]

Nothing at all wrong with short fowlers as I am only 5'8". 

You can get something in a late flint era styling with a 30" style and it will not be out of place at all. It does not have to be a double as many fine single barreled guns were produced in that era.
There are also many uncut fowling pieces of earlier time frames that sport uncut barrels averaging 37". These were more for "pahtridge" type guns whereas the much longer guns were for waterfowl.

There are some rare and specific early English birding guns that were shorter. They were believed to be sporting tools to be kept for a quick shot while about in a carriage. One such gun of mid 18th century range was in the Neal collection and about coaching carbine size. It had a 30" uncut barrel and a large bore with everything else being the norm.

[SCLoyalist]

I believe NorthStar West offers 20 ga, 30" barreled fowlers.  A perusal of the offerings of, and phonecall to, NorthStar West,  TVM, and Caywood guns ought to turn up a few options for you in a fine new gun.   And keep checking used offerings at Track of the Wolf, Contemporary Longrifles, and here at ALR, and you should find something well before hunting season.

[northmn]

I have shown the above half stock fowler more than once, but I did it as a project to see how inexpensive I could make one.  the barrel is a modern barrel I got at a gun show for $5.00.  it was 32 inches and cut down to about 30 inches.  I cut the birch stock and dried it from my own woods.  It was to have an English halfstock flavor and I should have done a little more research before building it, but it is a flintlock and works OK. Just not a show off piece for a Rendezvous.   


This is a picture of an antique I bought for parts but decided against it.  It has a wooden triggerguard and a back action percussion lock.  No one knows what it is when I asked, but it had seen some hard use.  So you can build an American halfstock around classic lines that would work.  Others have shown pictures of English halfstocks,  in percussion, that would be appropriate using a late English flint.
I would stay away from Northwest Trade guns as they are often built without enough drop. Check Chambers site as he may have pictures of shorter English fullstocks.  A 20 bore could be built fullstock following English lines also.

DP

[Daryl]

Here's my short fowler - 33" bl. 20 bore, IMP Cyl choke.  1oz shot or .595 RB. 33" long not including hooked breech.

[Leatherbelly]

  Roxie,
I have a New England fowler(flint) that meets your criteria except the barrel is 41 7/8". 13 5/8" LOP. Nice and slim, light, maybe 7 1/2 lbs.20gauge. PM me if interested. Perfect ladies gun.

[hanshi]

NSW should be able to make you what you're looking for as can TVM.  Like you, I like shorter guns.

[Roxie_L]

Thanks for the positive responses because it gives the incentive to get what I want instead of just making due. To answer Dr. Tim’s question, I hunt whatever, wherever and whenever my work schedule allows for but I prefer the challenge of hunting in areas with heavy cover. I want a 20ga/.62 so I have the option of using birdshot or ball depending on what the game is. I’m 5’-10” but prefer to have the LOP a bit on the short side for better handling with additional clothing layers. Both fowlers I have are New England style and they have a bit too much heel drop and positive pitch for snap shooting which is what I want the short gun for because most shots are take at 20 yards or less. The pitch on the gun Daryl shows is more to my liking except for the straight comb, I like a thicker comb with little curve to it so it’s not so hard on my cheek, an unobtrusive cheekpiece works too. I definitely want a full length stock and octagon to round barrel, both as slim and light as possible to keep the balance point closer to the butt end. Even though I was suffering from powder smoke withdrawal symptoms, a “gun show” sign my arrival at the range yesterday. About the time I was getting disgusted with the seemingly endless line of tables all having the same mall ninja junk, I happened to see a flintlock pistol the dealer said was made in Belgium. The bore was heavily rusted and the price wasn’t even within the realm of reason but what got my attention was how the rear octagon just tapered into the round without any defined transition point – would that type of barrel profile look too out of place on a short fowler? Dpeck, I like that wooden trigger guard, that’s a nice touch and something else for me to consider as I like iron mounted guns so the furniture does not draw attention away from the wood.
Ciao!
Roxie

[James Rogers]

Roxie,

That barrel configuration is common on English fowling pieces and pistols from the 18th century. Many just have a slight octagonal look at the breech and then transition to round without any wedding rings, etc. Even the breech end has a round bottom though.  Someone more studied than me can correct this but I have noticed that except for early or late 18th century, the majority of barrels on English fowling pieces and pistols that have octagon to round and wedding ring type transition seem to be of German or Italian manufacture.

Concerning shorter guns......although an exception to the rule,  English gunmaker John Harmon advertised in the mid 18th century of his famed fowling pieces with 2 foot, six inch barrels shooting better and harder at 40-60 yards than their longer counterparts. 

[northmn]

English styled guns are the best designed for handling recoil with a steel buttplate.  When I build a gun that has recoil I do not finish it until I have shot it to make sure it does not kick me in the cheek.  One does have to rely on certain standards for individual fit but the English style kicks away from the face.  My flintlock folwer I showed with the grouse, is a 12 bore that weighs maybe 7 pounds but likely less.  It does not hurt to shoot it.  I made another fowler that I sold in 12 bore that I accidently double charged with powder at a shoot (someone interupted my loading precedure)  It would have had 180 grains of powder behind a 90 grain equivalent load of shot.  It rolled me but did not hurt.  You want the wide straight 2" buttplate and the straight comb.   Fullstock or halfstock does not matter, but the later period rainproof locks may be a little quicker than the larger locks appropriate for a fullstock.  Track of the Wolf lists a couple of 30" fowler barrels of English design.  The barrel on the original I posted does seem to flow from octagon to round, the trade gun types have the "wedding band".  At this time it seems like availability is as important as style if one wants one by this fall.

DP

[Daryl]

This 'pelter' never cracks the cheek bone & snaps to the shoulder like a shotgun should. DP's spot-on. I have double chared this fowler with 2 loads of powder- 164gr., along with one ball and recoil, while a bit stiff, did not hurt my injured shoulder, nor did I get a crack on the cheek bone.  I knew it was double loaded, of course, but deliberately shot at the gong and hit it - of course. It was not a long shot- maybe 50 yards.  I have also loaded 2 complete charges, but had to pull the top one as it would not rest on the first one due to compressed air between and a tight seat of the ball in the tube.

[northmn]

While a 20 bore may not have as much kick as a larger bore like my 12, which is debatable since I load the 12 with 1oz to 1 1/8 oz loads, it can hurt.  Buttplate aligment should also be pretty straight so that it fits tight against the shoulder and also aids in pointing.  My gun has a little more drop than Daryls, but I built it more like a Lancaster, which I copy on rifles.  The cheek rests in about the same position.  The drop on fowlers may be a little less. Mine also has a slight cast off.  It is best to just copy a modern gun that fits you as to requirements.  I pretty much have my dimensions down, as to what I like, but have had to shorten stocks a bit as I often hunt wearing a jacket, and my original builds were short sleeve shooting match stuff.  I will also reiterate about shooting the gun before finishing it for final fine tuning of fit. 

DP 

[Leatherbelly]

I'm gonna catch $#*! for this but...English guns are very effective, but are as ugly as they are effective! In my humble opinion(just me), fowler and "short" just don't seem to go together in my way of thinking.An oxy-moron.
  I almost bought a short fowler from a fellow I know, 30" 20ga. Asher Hamilton. It would do just fine as a single purpose shotgun,but as a roundball shooter,nyet! The little rifle type L&R lock held me back, but the trigger was one of the sweetest I've ever tried.

[northmn]

I can relate to aesthetics as I would be a poor judge of rifles in a competition of bulding skills.  A  Bedford would come in last in my ratings just becasue it is a Bedford.  There are others that really get into them and thats fine.  Lot of things I like others don't.   A true English gun lacks all the decoration of an Ameircan gun but with its engraving and style is pretty elegant.  Also I think that they were made in halfstock and shorter in later years as the English that could afford them traveled the world to do their hunting.  A halfstock with a hooked breech fits very nicely into a traveling case.  As to ease of cleaning with a hooked breech, would they care as they did not do their own cleaning but had a servant to do that for them.  Jack O'Connor wrote about visiting a prestigous English company that built English Game guns.  They made them spring laoded so that they would pop open for quick reloading.  When O'Connor mentioned that it made them harder to close the answer was that "a gentleman never closes his shotgun" 
I have gravitated toward shorter weapons as I hunt in the brush and find them easier to transport.  A 30 inch barrel fits in a car or pickup cab better than a long barrel and is easier to get out.  I also like to take one along when I cut wood and carry one off my 4-wheeler and tractor.  Using a longer barrel in a treestand can also be a bit of a pain.  Still I have a 42 inch barreled smooth rifle that I enjoy taking out on occasion.  As to round ball, my 30" 12 bore will shoot them fairly well as I have tried them, but it is an experience to shoot a round ball with a decent charge out of a 12 bore that weighs less than 7 pounds.  Shooting roundball is what my English inspired 30 inch 58 rifle is made for.  But the 20 bore with the 42 inch barrel would make an all around gun.

DP