ALR Museum Gunsmith: Andrew Klein/Kleindinst... York Co, PA.

[JTR]

The pictures are okay, on top of each other, on my screen.
John

[JTR]

I would say the fowler is a later restock of an A+K initialed barrel.
The gun is using a later design trigger guard, a different trigger, no side plate, walnut instead of maple, etc, so not likely made by A+K.

John

[Robert Wolfe]

Well, not sure what to say. On my screen the pics are strung left to right which makes the me have to scroll faaaar to the right to see them all. Must be an issue on my end but other threads look OK. Not a big deal.

[mr. no gold]

I recognize the Sell style, relief carved rifle in the series of 'A+K' photos. It was, and probably still is, in California, as the writer suggests. The gun came out of the Bowers' collection, in PA, (Gunmakers of Pen-Mar-VA), and he had identified it as a Kleindinst made piece. Not sure why he came to that conclusion.
As to the rifle itself, it is a beautiful gun with nice carving that appears to have connections to the Sells. The original lock has been replaced with a large earlier style lock, and the fit is not particularily good. If you examine the sideplate, you can see that the forward part is discolored; that is where a new piece of brass has been scabbed on taking it all the way to the front of the sideplate shoulder. The front lock bolt hole was relocated forward to accommodate the replaced lock as well.
Bowers was primarily a furniture restorer and did beautiful work, mostly for the senior Joe Kindig. He also 'restored' guns and very likely did the lock work on this rifle. Probably done some 40 to 50 years ago, back when 'any old part would do' when it came to restoration.
This is a great subject: one which needs to be reconciled due to misinformation, and guess work, when initials are all we have to go on, if that. Thank you.
Dick

[Kline]

Dick, thanks for the comments and information. I was looking at Kindigs's book the other evening and noticed how much the carving on the signed Klinedinst rifle matches the rifle that I posted the photos of. However, the engraving on the patch box and the shape and engraving on the side plate, and also the signature on the barrel, match all the other rifles I posted photos of and including the photos of the rifle that is shown in the beginning of this post. I also noticed that there is very little wear and tear on this stock in comparison to the other rifles I posted. The stock seems to be in almost too perfect of condition for the age of the rifle, so, as you have stated that Bowers did repair work and was associated with Joe Kindig, the thought comes to mind that perhaps this rifle was restocked and that since, at the time, rifles that were signed A+K were attributed to Andrew Klinedinst, the restocker used the carving of the signed A Klinedist as an example or pattern. This is just wild speculation, but something just does not seem right about this rifle. 
                                                                                                         Tom

[Kline]

Also wanted to point out, all the rifles we are looking at either full signature or initialed, have the same little Edelweiss on all the patch boxes. To me, this seems to be almost as good as a signature, that the rifle was built by the same gunsmith.
  Anyway these are just some things that I noticed, and I guess you can say that I have a bias towards Andrew Kline, but I would very much like to hear other points of view. Again. I would very much like to see the signature on the rifle that is at the start of this thread and an example of Andrew Klinedinst signature. I am really hoping we can keep this subject going and hopefully learn something from each other.

                                                                                                            Tom

[Kline]

I would say the fowler is a later restock of an A+K initialed barrel.
The gun is using a later design trigger guard, a different trigger, no side plate, walnut instead of maple, etc, so not likely made by A+K.

John, you are probably right, I really have no idea where this gun fits in the scheme of things. It was just in on a collection of guns that I had the opportunity to look at and the initials look to match those on the other rifles.

                                                                                                        Tom

 

[mr. no gold]

Hi Tom-You have opened up a really good discussion on this, (these?), maker(s). Lots to explore here. Another comment, another response really,  about the rifle mentioned earlier. The A+K gun appeared to me to be quite legitimate with just the alterations noted, (lock & sideplate). It is certainly old and not a restocked piece. I saw the gun while still in the Bowers collection and later when it came to California. He offered it to me for 20K, an offer which I politely and quickly declined, (after his passing, it sold for about half that). Bowers work and restoration on guns was far from what we accept as the norm in today's terms. I think that the difference is that this gun is likely an earlier piece than the others you have shown here; the carving differs greatly from the others, too, as it is high relief and much like Sell carving. It may be that both makers used the A+K signature on occasion and that creates confusion today. There is a big difference in style and in execution to be sure. Hence, two makers in my opinion, Kline and Kleindinst.
Dick 

[Kline]

Hi Dick, I was really pleased to hear your thoughts on the rifle from Bower's collection. It is nice to hear from someone who had a first hand look at it. My thoughts are, aside from the stock carving, it has all the attributes of the signed rifles I posted.
  When I was spending hours researching my family line, I noticed links to almost all the german families I ran across of that time, and found I am related in some manner to alot of old york county dutch families. Who knows how that influenced a gunsmiths style, or just the fact that they were all fairly close in terms of where they lived.
  I really think I have shown Klinedinst and Kline are no doubt two different individuals and that the rifles I have shown are Kline rifles due to there common characteristics and Kline signature. I will try to flesh out Andrew Kline with a biography as time permits, but if anyone wishes to know any certain facts until then, I will gladly share what I know.
                                                                                                       Tom
PS Dick I think,as you stated, the rifle's asking price was $10,000 when offered for sale to me

[Kline]

please check out my post on Andrew Kline and Andrew Klinedinst.

                                                                               Thanks,
                                                                                  Tom