What pouch and horn to build

[David Rase]

I just acquired one of Jack Brooks Type G trade guns and need to build a pouch and horn to complete the outfit.  I am looking for any suggestions on what would be appropriate for this 1760 trade gun.  This gun has the inked vine decoration on the butt stock similar to the Bumford gun featured on Gary Brumfield's web page.  One thought I had was to use Art DeCamp's lead oxide method of spotting a horn but paint the solution on in a vine pattern.
DMR

[James Rogers]

Dave,
I really like the English trade guns.
Do you plan to pursue this project, from a historical standpoint or from a contemporary craftsmanship standpoint? Also, po white or INDN?

[Luke MacGillie]

http://faculty.umf.maine.edu/walter.sargent/public.www/web%20230/Death%20of%20Wolfe%20BenjaminWest.jpg

[BrownBear]

Without addressing your questions about style and finish, I'll step forth as a "function" advocate.  If the trade gun, bag and horn are to be used a lot, size, layout and utility are my first considerations.  I'd spend some serious time determining the minimum kit of accessories you want to carry and how they'll arrange themselves in a bag in a busy day of carry, then proceed from there.  I build bags to a minimum size in order to avoid the temptation to overstuff them, and I don't like fishing and digging for tools and supplies while reloading.  Those have become my primary criteria for bags and are confronted long before questions of style and finish. 

For example my most recent bags are about 6"x6" with a 1.5" gusset in the bottom, rolled lip and single interior pocket on the back panel.  They carry only a very small hunting horn (loose inside the bag) with an attached measure, a 2-hole loading block with attached short starter in the interior pocket, and a flint/tool wallet loose in the bottom of the bag along with half a dozen loose balls and a strip of patching.  I've made a couple of prototypes and beat the stuffings out of them in the hills to satisfy myself the combo meets my needs and is highly functional.  Only now am I finally ready to make a "finished" version.

[David Rase]

Dave,
I really like the English trade guns.
Do you plan to pursue this project, from a historical standpoint or from a contemporary craftsmanship standpoint? Also, po white or INDN?

Good questions James.  Things I had not considered.  Though I am looking at what would of been historical correct for a white man I want to use it so it will need to be durable as well.  I shot about 30 rounds through the gun on Saturday and plan on using it again next weekend.  I plan to shoot shot as well as roundball. 
Don't know if I answered your questions or not.  Looking forward to continuing this conversation.
 DMR

[BrownBear]

I plan to shoot shot as well as roundball. 

Just a bit of unsolicited advice and insight from use:  It will be a memory making day if you shoot so many times on a hunt that you consume a pound of shot.  That's roughly a dozen 1 1/4 oz charges.  But a pound of shot occupies a volume no bigger than a typical lemon.  Most shot containers are nonetheless large enough to hold 4-5 pounds of shot.  You are not going to be happy with 4-5 pounds on your shoulder for all the 2-3 shot hunts that are typical "good days."  I build small shot flasks to help keep myself in line, but if you like the big ones, there's no rule that says you have to fill them more than 1/4 full.

[smokinbuck]

BB,
You amke a good point re the amount of powder needed for a typical hunt. I sent David pictures of a fowler bag that I have that uses the flap for a shot pouch with an English head attached. Holds plenty of shot and eliminates the need for an extra flask or snake.
Mark

[BrownBear]

BB,
You amke a good point re the amount of powder needed for a typical hunt. I sent David pictures of a fowler bag that I have that uses the flap for a shot pouch with an English head attached. Holds plenty of shot and eliminates the need for an extra flask or snake.
Mark

Now that's a terrific idea!  Running against a lot of styles, we have to have snaps or buttons or some such on our bags due to the rough terrain.  A little lead in the flap would go a long ways toward solving the issue.  I just happen to have a spare Irish head sitting around...... 

[James Rogers]

Dave,
I really like the English trade guns.
Do you plan to pursue this project, from a historical standpoint or from a contemporary craftsmanship standpoint? Also, po white or INDN?

Good questions James.  Things I had not considered.  Though I am looking at what would of been historical correct for a white man I want to use it so it will need to be durable as well.  I shot about 30 rounds through the gun on Saturday and plan on using it again next weekend.  I plan to shoot shot as well as roundball. 
Don't know if I answered your questions or not.  Looking forward to continuing this conversation.
 DMR

Dave,

If doing period, I would avoid fancy. No linings or pockets or loops for bullet blocks and ball starters.
I would choose a good piece of vegetable calf and make a bag that used a double divider that also served as  a welt.
The Lyman bag from Clash of Empires has that feature as well as one Wallace had written about in some older MB articles that could also possibly be quite early.

There is also written documentation for the same design but with cloth and it gives us an insight as to what the divider was used for....
The 2d Virginia Regiment October 12, 1775:

“… Each Company is to draw a sufficient Quantity of Dutch or Russia Drilling to provide Each Soldier with a Shott Pouch with a partition in division in the middle to keep buckshot and bullets separate. Each Soldier to make his own sack and Shot Pouch as near one General Size Pattern as possible…” Thanks  JM

Maybe some tooling lines on the strap and around the flap, etc. no binding.

I would keep the horn plain as well.
I guess my idea of proper would be well made items from a harness maker type done in a workman like manner with none of the fancy add-ons that we take as common on a well made pouch today. This was a working item in the day and not artwork. Could have been import (my best guess) or local made by a skilled worker for sale or trade.

It may not win any craftsmanship awards at the show being absent of all the expected bells and whistles but it is a fer piece closer to right in going with that gun. 


Jim Mullins, the author of Of Sorts For Provincials and I have been trading research on bags, flasks, horns, etc. for a couple of years. He has a good write up on his blog about a bag very similar. The image I found of the pouch he modeled his after seemed to have a different bottom line to my eye than what Jim used in the demo. I designed a few of mine with a "cleft" in the bottom and dubbed them the "butt bag" profile. 
http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2011/03/making-shot-bag-or-pouch-part-1-of-2.html
http://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/2011/03/making-shot-bag-or-pouch-part-2-of-2.html

JMHO

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Well,

If you want to go to the large size for a European colonial with a traditional English bag... Clay Smith has a take on it....


English Game Bag
with tooled flap
Very large and roomy bag. No inside pocket.
Just a gusseted one on front with a flap and a flat one on back.
About 11" wide x 15" tall x 2 1/2" deep with a 1" deep front pocket. Strap is 1˝" with buckle adjustment.

[James Rogers]

That is a super piece but in my opinion better matched with a fine double in a much later time frame as well as a jump up in the class system.

[Leatherbelly]

   French/Indian lobe horn, double bag.

[KennyC]

Just my 02.
early trade gun
early native influenced bag
plain horn scraped thin enough to see how much powder is in it
As I have read a few accounts of native bags/horns,guns and trade silver  being sold after a battle.
But if your not into a historical style rig then that game bag sure is pretty   

[T.C.Albert]

A white long hunter with an early trade gun could have most definitely been under the influence of Native Americans. I think Boone was once given a light trade gun and enough ammo to feed himself and orders to go home after being captured by the Indians and plundered....though it wasn't mentioned, I expect his shot pouch and horn were confiscated too and a common native styled bag and plain old horn substituted.
Just a thought..
TC  

[KennyC]

Not to hi-jack this thread but thanks TC for the article on axe case fixed up my case  and now it's a do-zie  ken