Shotloads for Varmit hunting

[Jerry V Lape]

Thinking my next build might be a buck & ball for the specific purpose of hunting varmits (coyotes and bobcats mostly.)  The modern shotgun loads being used are with the tungsten polymer stuff like Hevi shot and Dead Coyote loads.  Anyone experienced these types of shot in their muzzleloader enough to advise on usefulness? 

[Daryl]

I haven't used them but have enough experience with pelters to say they'd probably work just fine, perhaps better than lead in some ways.

The bore's protection is the only serious difference - heavy plastic cups or other protection and that brings up plastic melting.  The base of the plastic wad has to be kept free of flame.  I would think a thick fibre wad would work better than a normal 1/8" hard nitro card wad.

One thing about the non-tox shot, they won't be damaged by set-back forces and should pattern better, especially with the shot cup.

 Be aware others have said the steel shot cups don't open well as lead shot cups. Seems to me a good long range patterning is in order.

Perhaps they'll work similar to the Westley Richards wire cages, giving VERY long range to a shot load, but shoot like bullets close in.

[bob in the woods]

I needed a few loads of " non-toxic " shot...there's an oxymoron for you !! My wife said ' all your shots [ at ducks ] are non-toxic aren't they ?"   Anyway, I digress .  I made my own from a bar of non-toxic pewter.
Turned out more like swan shot, but it worked OK in my Bess.  I got two wood ducks with one shot as they took off from my pond.  I don't use enough to buy a big bag of it. 

[Dave Faletti]

Do you need non-toxic shot?   BB sized lead shot worked well for me. 

[BrownBear]

I have no experience with the nontox on coyotes, but I've sure whacked a bunch of them to 50 yards with #4 buck in modern guns.  I agree that unless you're required to use nontox, load development with lead loads should give you plenty of killing power, and range to the effective patterning limits of your combo.  If as you surmise the nontox gives tighter patterns and extends range, that could be a good thing.  I look forward to your results if you try it.

BTW-  The hardened lead buckshot from Ballistic Products is pretty close to the apex of buckshot development for me in performance.  Based on my early years of hunting ducks with lead from muzzleloaders, addition of a AA12R shot cup produced near-modified patterns from cylinder bore guns.  Using a shot cup with hard lead buck such as Ballistic Products just might produce great patterns for you.

[Jerry V Lape]

I would certainly try the lead buck shot first and your shared experience with that is appreciated.  The desire to try the tungsten/polymer type shot wasn't in search of non toxic loads.  The guys in the AZ Predator Caller's Club who are mentoring me on this new sport ( for me ) all reach for their shotguns first. Most use 12ga-3 1/2" or 10ga magnums with Dead Coyote, hevi shot and tungsten/polymer.  Rifles are carried as well but they rather routinely take coyotes beyond 50 yds with shotguns, with some reported to 80yds.  They attribute the effectiveness to these heavier and harder than lead projectiles.  I thought it might be interesting to use a muzzleloader for this if I could come up with a decent load.  

[BrownBear]

I can just about picture the country, because I started my own coyote career in the next state east of you.  Any load combo that might let you beat the 50 yard margin consistently is certainly worth exploring.  

We mixed up our hunting when I was a kid, working on foot with rifles or on horseback with a 12 gauge balanced on the pommel.  That was back in the day of poison baits and cyanide guns, so seeing coyotes, much less connecting with one, was pretty rare.  Sure different today, and on my visit last year to his ranch, my uncle and I went out to check his traps.  In addition to the 5 he caught overnight, we shot two more while driving.  Both a long ways off with modern rifles with scopes of course, because on his ranch the coyotes are really nervous about a certain green pickup truck!  

[northmn]

To get much extra range with any shot size you would probably need to jug choke the barrel.  For the larger shot sizes mentioned, modified or about 020 often will pattern to full choke.  Jug chokes work better with less stiff chot cup.  Some claim steel shot cups will bridge them.

DP

[roundball]

Jug chokes work better with less stiff chot cup.  Some claim steel shot cups will bridge them.

Given my understanding of how my Jug Chokes work, my assumption is that any shot cup would seriously reduce, if not defeat, the operation of a Jug Choke...even if the petals of a shot cup are only .015"-.020" thick...on all sides...that would pretty much take up the enlarged diameter of an expansion chamber, no ??

[bob in the woods]

How about chain shot ?  My Uncle used to split shot and squeeze it on a piece of wire or mono.

[Daryl]

The jug choke works because it allows the expansion of the shot that was contained inside the barrel, then chokes it down again.  A plastic wad, will/should also expand into the jug, which will allow expansion of the shot inside it, which was contained in a smaller circle when inside the bore due to the wad's thickness, then get choked as normal. If the plastic cup does expand out into the jug as it should, the patterns should be even tighter than when shot bare.

The thickness of the wad is imaterial, as long as it allows the petals to flow outward, expanding into it from the confines of the bore.

[roundball]

If the plastic cup does expand out into the jug as it should, the patterns should be even tighter than when shot bare.

The thickness of the wad is imaterial, as long as it allows the petals to flow outward, expanding into it from the confines of the bore.

Uhmmm....maybe I'm missing something...help me out here:

An expansion chamber is honed out to a certain diameter to provide a certain amount of choke effect...let's say it's honed out .020" all around to give a modified choke.

If the petals of a shot cup are .020" thick.....yes, they'll open slightly into the expansion chamber compared to the confines of the cylinder bore.....but the shot won't be able to expand the full .020" because the shot cup petals are taking up space against the walls of the expansion chamber...effectively making the diameter of the expansion chamber smaller.

If the shot pellets can't expand to the original full size of the expansion chamber to get the modified choke effect in this example, they'd end up having less step-down choke effect at the muzzle....ie: might only be skeet or Imp.Cyl.....is that not right?  

[Daryl]

Inside the shot cup, the pellets are .020" tighter (per side?) than when in a plain barrel (in your .020" example). When the petals expand into the jug, the shot will expand exactly the same amount, then get compressed at the end of the choke same as it does when there is no wad, the bore itself is merely tighter than before.  If the plastci can't or won't expand into the jug, then the jug will be doing nother. All it will take is to fire a few shots to find out.

The wad merely makes the bore .020" (or whatever thicknesss it is) tighter than it was without it.  The plastic wad's base might be 1/16" thick per side or more and perhaps only .015" to .020" at the thin tops.

Due to the wad holding the shot closeer together as it passes out the muzzle, the patterns might be even tighter than without the plastic, just as they improve patterns in most cylinder bores.

[roundball]

Thanks, that helps a lot...the space reference is the same

If I have this correct I can say in other words, the shot cup has the shot pellets constricted smaller in the main bore, and although the shot pellets can't expand out to reach the actual walls of the expansion chamber, since they started from a constricted smaller diameter space to begin with, "their amount of expansion" is basically the same as if they were bare bore pellets expanding out against the walls of the expansion chamber...makes sense.

And I understand the point that the shot cup will have the shot column squeezed smaller at muzzle exit than without a shot cup.....BUT.....seems to me the ratio would still be the same stepping back down at muzzle exit "as far as choke effect" is concerned...its stepping down from a smaller diameter expansion chamber effect, to a correspondingly smaller diameter choke effect...so the amount of "choke" would still be the same ratio, not "additional choke", right?

And I agree that shot cups generally improve "patterns" even in straight cylinder bores...but the word switch I just did was "patterns"...not add "additional choke".
I don't think a shot cup "adds choke" to an open cylinder bore.....but they do "improve patterns" because of the benefit of reduced pellet deformation...and by holding the shot charge together further in flight out towards the target before falling away so the shot column starts spreading much closer to the target.

Just my ( current ) understanding of it...

[BrownBear]

I'm moving into observation rather than established fact, but without chokes I have experienced a successive improvement in patterns in roughly this sequence- Move from bargain shot to hardened shot and you get a little jump.  Go from hardened to plated and you get another jump.  Go from any of them to plastic cups and you get another jump, I suppose due to limited shot scrubbing on the bore walls.  Add a choke and you get another jump.  Taken all together- plated shot, shot cup and choke, and the same gun can be turned into a patterning fiend, compared to bare soft shot in the same bore.  I'm basing the choke observation on the results of others because I've never owned a choked muzzleloader, whether jug or conventional.  My outlook is that I'll mix and match to produce more or less open patterns from a particular gun, depending on my needs at the moment.  

I will note that a pub I have from the early 70's recommended trimming the petals on WAA12R cups to change patterns, and I was able to confirm that thoroughly when I hunted ducks so much in those days-  Whole petals yielded near-Modified patterns from my cylinder bores.  Half-length petals yielded "Improved Cylinder" patterns, and removing the petals completely yielded Cylinder patterns, but with what seemed to be a little more even shot distribution within the pattern.  I'm still iffy on that last point, though.

[Jerry V Lape]

Surprised you found plated shot an improvement over good hardened (hi antimony) shot.  Most of the plated shot I have tried worked just the same as soft shot.  I think that was because the manufacturers used soft shot for the plating which is really not thick enough to add structure.  Good quality hard shot does the best for me. 

[BrownBear]

Surprised you found plated shot an improvement over good hardened (hi antimony) shot.  Most of the plated shot I have tried worked just the same as soft shot.  I think that was because the manufacturers used soft shot for the plating which is really not thick enough to add structure.  Good quality hard shot does the best for me.  

I suspect it has to do with reducing scrubbing or something, more than reducing deformation from firing.  But there's "plated" and then there is plated.  The old Winchester stuff was heavily plated and really resisted deformation.  The current junk put out by Lawrence is nothing more than a copper paint from all I can tell- it literally rubs off on your fingers.  The only thing close I've found to the old Winchester is the current crop of Nickel plated from Ballistic Products.  I don't know how it rates for absolute "hardness," but it really resists both deformation and scrubbing, making me suspect that they plated hardened or high-alloy shot.  Good stuff.  So good that I suspect it even beats the old Winchester, but I don't have any of that left for comparison.

[northmn]

Others have complained that copper plated shot does not help much anymore.  Likely due to use of softer shot.  Nickel plated shot patterns a lot like steel in that there is a definite thickening to the center.  The newer soft lead subs like ITX and Nice Shot tend to be harder than lead and also may pattern tighter once you get over the sticker shock.  I think about the heaviest they make them in is BB which is nasty up closer, but may not give you the long range performance you are talking about.  A strong pattern of BB should work out to 40 yards + or -.  I would want to pattern a lot with lead before using a lead sub.  In the days of drop shot and black powder a common load for a 12 was 1 1/8 oz and for a 10 1 1/4.  The harder shot does help.

DP

[Jerry V Lape]

If I am going to get performance similar to the varmit hunters with their 12ga 3 1/2" or 10ga Magnums  pushing 2oz loadsI will need a heavier load than traditional 1 1/8oz or 1 1/4oz.  Might need to go to 8ga but the state law limits to 10ga.  Wonder how many possum cops can tell the difference between an 8ga and a 10ga overbored in an unmarked muzzleloader barrel, if they even cared on coyote hunter?  Maybe I better stick to lead buckshot and a legal bore size. It would be hard to explain to my Hunter Education students how I got busted for an illegal gun. 

[BrownBear]

In 50 years of hunting, I can't recall seeing a single bore gauge hanging from a gear belt!  Who's to say your gun isn't "back bored?"

By the way, here's the link to the nickel plated shot:  Ballistic Products   If you scroll down, they also have an assortment of plated buckshot.  I haven't tried that, but based on experience with the smaller stuff I'd have high hopes for meaningful results.

By the way-  I just read their @#$%/!! sheet on the nickel plated shot, and in fact they do start with a hard alloy rather than pure lead.

[Jerry V Lape]

The nickel plated antimony/lead shot does look great.  I think building a 10ga (overbored!) and choked to handle either the F shot or #4buck should give me a pretty good combination.  Thanks for the experience guys.  It will be a while before I will be able to report back on it but I will as soon as possible. 

[BrownBear]

A strong pattern of BB should work out to 40 yards + or -. 

I can come close to "verifying" that. 

I completely rolled a large yote at about 35 yards with 1 1/4 oz of plated #5's from a Modified choke while pheasant hunting.  He staggered back to his feet, but a second charge from the Full choke barrel buttered his toast.  I sincerely doubt he would have had any stagger left in him after a hit with BBs at that range.

[roundball]

Surprised you found plated shot an improvement over good hardened (hi antimony) shot.  Most of the plated shot I have tried worked just the same as soft shot.  I think that was because the manufacturers used soft shot for the plating which is really not thick enough to add structure.  Good quality hard shot does the best for me.  

That's been my experience as well...I have a several decades old 25bag of original Winchester Lubaloy...Copper Plated #4 shot...and it's the real deal.  It hasn't been made in decades and in spite of posting on a couple different hunting sites asking folks to look in garages, old barns, etc...I haven't come up with any and would think I'd died and gone to heaven if I could find a bag of Lubaloy #5s and #6s.

In the past couple years I've bought bags of Lawrence #5 and #6 copper plated, and bags of Ballistic Products #6 and #7 nickel plated...none of them are worth a $#@*...just pouring them in and out of metal coffee cans a few times knocks off the coating so pretty soon you look in the can and you see dozens of little shiny silver spots where the plating is nicked off, shining back up at you...will just save them for the skeet range or something.

When I patterned CP #6s, then NP#6s, to see if they'd tighten my long range turkey load of Magnum #6s, each of them averaged only an extra 3 pellets, with NP being better than CP.

The real sleeper was Ecotungsten/Niceshot...average # of Magnum #6s on a sheet of notebook paper at 40 yards was around 60, and Niceshot pumped in close to 80...significant jump.
Niceshot is expensive, but as a direct lead substitute, you can do all your load testing with the same size lead.
And no more shots than I take at a turkey (or goose) head, with a pound of Niceshot yielding about 10 shot charges per pound, a couple pounds will last me a few years.

 

[BrownBear]

Hmmmph.  Sounds like I need to play with my nickel shot a little more, or better yet rattle it around in a shot flask all day and see how it wears.  I haven't been handling it all that much before loading, and I've seen a considerably better improvement of Lawrence copper plate.  That makes me wonder if we're tiptoeing around the edges of a difference between choked and cylinder bores, too. 

Seems like the shooting is never done, doesn't it?  Dang.   

[roundball]

Hmmmph.  Sounds like I need to play with my nickel shot a little more, or better yet rattle it around in a shot flask all day and see how it wears.  I haven't been handling it all that much before loading, and I've seen a considerably better improvement of Lawrence copper plate.  That makes me wonder if we're tiptoeing around the edges of a difference between choked and cylinder bores, too.  

Seems like the shooting is never done, doesn't it?  Dang.  

My .20ga is jug choked for some extra distance, yes...but the comparisons were all made from the same barrel so the choke didn't enter into the end result differences...just noting that I didn't see enough improvement from modern CP or NP shot over magnum hard lead shot to even bother talking about, much less justify the additional expense...so I have a few 10lb lots of the stuff in my garage gathering dust.
 

Thought just occurred to me...my first range trip experiments with the 42" Rice .54cal smoothbore barrel were excellent using chilled #5s, and magnum #6s and #7.5s.
I need to try the CP and NP shot I have in that barrel...might be very surprised...stranger things have happened.


PS: Apologies to Jerry for my contribution in taking this thread a little off course