62 caliber Hawken

[dan parrett]

I was wondering if anyone is shooting a 62 caliber Hawken and if so, how is the recoil with the Hawken butt plate. Also, was it a caliber that was originally made by Hawken?

Thanks in advance,

Dan

[BrownBear]

In reverse order, there was quite a range of calibers in Hawkens.  I don't remember the particulars, but Hansen cites an original in 62.  A friend built a 62 (36" 1 1/8" barrel), which as you might guess is quite heavy.  I don't find recoil objectionable with his charge of 120 grains of 2f, though I'm well acquainted with the Hawken buttplate.  If you nestle it into the cup of your shoulder as with conventional arms, it's likely to bite you in calibers a lot smaller than 62.  But if you move it out onto your arm a bit, they're actually more comfortable than a lot of other styles.  A little castoff in your stock helps with that.

I'm likely to build one myself, but I'm going to lop the barrel to 32" or so and also taper the barrel for better handling.  I've got a 36" barreled GRRW 58 caliber tapered from 1 1/8" to 1", and it remarkably improves the handling for my taste.

[roundball]

I was wondering if anyone is shooting a 62 caliber Hawken and if so, how is the recoil with the Hawken butt plate. Also, was it a caliber that was originally made by Hawken?
Thanks in advance,
Dan

Since it seems your question is really about recoil with a cresent shaped butt plate as opposed to anything strictly "PC", I'll offer this reply for what it's worth.

I have T/C Hawken Flintlocks set up with GM .62cal smoothbore barrels, and one of them has also been rifled for me by Ed Rayl...also have them in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58 and there is no recoil issue with any of them.

A cresent buttplate is not rested flat against the chest wall, it is mounted against the shoulder with the heel of the curve being up over the top, and the toe being down in the crevice of the armpit...the only thing that actuall contacts the shoulder is really the middle gentle curve of the butt...can shoot them all day with no ill effects from a cresent buttplate

[Roger Fisher]

I was wondering if anyone is shooting a 62 caliber Hawken and if so, how is the recoil with the Hawken butt plate. Also, was it a caliber that was originally made by Hawken?
Thanks in advance,
Dan

Since it seems your question is really about recoil with a cresent shaped butt plate as opposed to anything strictly "PC", I'll offer this reply for what it's worth.

I have T/C Hawken Flintlocks set up with GM .62cal smoothbore barrels, and one of them has also been rifled for me by Ed Rayl...also have them in .40/.45/.50/.54/.58 and there is no recoil issue with any of them.

A cresent buttplate is not rested flat against the chest wall, it is mounted against the shoulder with the heel of the curve being up over the top, and the toe being down in the crevice of the armpit...the only thing that actuall contacts the shoulder is really the middle gentle curve of the butt...can shoot them all day with no ill effects from a cresent buttplate

And the reverse is known to occur!    Quite a few yrs ago (read a lot) I shot with a guy that did very well with a .45 then for some reason unknown to me he went to a 58.  His hold was out on his upper arm (with his fingers reversed on the lower forearm - his fingers were around the left side although he shot righty we still call it the 'buck' hold.  Anyhooo he developed a nasty goose egg on his right upper arm from the recoil  (and a flinch that he could not get rid of)  He ended up quitting which actually was a shame...!  I feel that with a snug fit against his shoulder cup he would not have developed that goose egg or the flinch.!   

Thats my story and I stickin to it!!!!!!!!!!

[J.D.]

I'm not a Hawken expert, by any means, but I do seem to remember reading that a few Hawkens were make with a "shotgun butt." A "shotgun butt" might be the answer to heavy recoil in larger calibers.

[Daryl]

JD - the English styling is the best form for a heavy calibre hunting rifle there is. They automatically have wide flat shot-gun butts. 

Taylor's first Hawken made in prertty true form of the Hawken was a .62 and had a 1 1/8" octagonal barrel. We started load development at around 200gr. 2F and reduced that back to around 120gr. 2F.  It was a great hunting rifle, although it did kick a bit.  My own Hawken was in .58 and that butt plate worked on me in an adverse manner.  It wouldn't shoot less than 140gr. 2F accurately and the recoil is the reason I finally sold it.  My English Sporting rifle in .69 was much easier on the shoudler, although it used even more powder with a ball almost twice as heavy.  In the English gun, recoil wasn't a problem.

 None of the rifles kick much with 110gr. or less powder, regardless of the butt shape.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Adding to Daryl's post, my Hawken had a 32" long parallel 1 1/16" .62 cal barrel.  The rifle was a perfect weight for hunting, and with 220 grains, recoil was heavy but not intolerable.  I settled on 120 grains 2 Fg and shot it continuously without discomfort.  Shooting it prone was an entirely different thing.  Do not!

A tapered barrel starting at around 1 1/8" or larger would give the rifle a nicer balance.   I regret selling that rifle, as usual.

[Dphariss]

With commercially available buttplates you will not like it a lot. They were meant for use with 50-54 caliber rifles weighing 10-15 pounds. 535 ball weighs about 220 grains. The 615 will be about 350. With a 120 grains of powder to get decent velocity its going to hurt. If you want a 1830s-50s rifle in this caliber make it a English sporter they were stocked for heavier calibers. The 1/2 stock Hawken is an Americanized British sporting rifle anyway.

Dan

[northmn]

As to wide buttplates spreading recoil I had inadvertently loaded about 180 grains of powder behind a 1 1/4 oz shot load in a fowler.  It had a 2" plus wide and flat buttplate.  While the recoil was impressive, it absorbed the recoil very well.  Some of the plains rifle buttplates look like they may have been designed to "hook" on the arm in some fashion to handle the weight of the rifle.  Many plains rifles were very heavy, thick barrel walled, creations.  The English style was for a bigger bore, lighter weight rifle and to me also makes more sense.  I would definitely look into a shotgun buttplate  or a wider early Hawken buttplate if one had to build a Hawken in a big bore. 

DP

[omark]

my fullstock has a 36 x 1" barrel and i hunt with 100 gr 2F and plink with 50 gr2F. it is an early style. i am a little sensitive to recoil, so i dont shoot the 100 gr load for fun. dont know what you guys hunt with the 180 - 200 gr loads. a 100gr knocks animals down pretty well.   

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Omark, you are perfectly correct.

[dan parrett]

Thanks for the info. I just finished (mostly) a full stock Hawken from Pecatonica in 58 and just got back from the range. I had it up to 140gr and it wasn't as bad as I thought. The weather was pretty bad, but I got it on paper at least.

Dan

[BrownBear]

Congrats on the new 58!

I'm curious about the diameter and length of the barrel, as well as overall weight of the rifle.  My GRRW 58 halfstock Hawken comes in at 12 pounds has a 36" barrel tapered from 1 1/8" to 1".  It's finely balanced for range work and offhand shooting in general, but a bit slow to swing as you might guess for fast shooting.  And at the far end of a full day and several miles of hunting it weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of 112 pounds.   I've only taken it to 120 grains of powder, but as you noted, recoil is not at all objectionable. 

[Daryl]

BB and Omark- the GRRW .58 hawken I had weighed enough with it's 34" x 1 1/8" barrel that sub-120gr. 2F loads didn't kick much at all.  I found I could barely stay on a pie-plate (maybe 8" round) at 100 yards off the bench with less than 100gr., but as I increased the charge accuracy got better and better.  Where to stop is the tickler.  When I reached 140gr. 2F, it was shotoing into 1 1/2" consistantly - no wind.  This was back in the late 70's using the GOEX or GOX - whatever the "G" powder was then. Using C&H or Meteor powder in 3F, that charge had to be 160gr. to match POI and group size with the GOX/GOEX powder in 2F granulation.  I was using the ball/patch combo that worked so well in everything else I'd shot until that time - ball .005" under bore size, patch of .022" (12oz denim) and bear grease or mink oil for lube.
 When powder charges were reduced below 140gr., accuracy fell off to where I didn't trust it and therefore this rifle wasn't any good for rondy's etc. One has a difficult time shooting that much powder for an entire day - the narrow butt kicked me enough that I sold it to a more recoil-insensitve fellow.  Great hunting rifle, flat shooting, hard hitting, but not suitable for plinking. At that time, I was a one load for all type of guy. I didn't believe in diferent loads for 'each' range - something even then, guys were doing.
 When we built the .69, I found it's GRRW barrel needed very heavy powder charges to shoot it's best, but I put up with mediocre accuracy to save on powder, and used a piddling charge of 80gr.   It shot this considerably better at 100 yards than did the .58 with the same powder charge and so was barely OK for plinking with it.  Even with it's enormous (in comparrison) ball weight, and even heavier charge, the English-styled .69 kicked with less felt recoil than the much heavier .58 did with it's 140gr. charge. The .69 weighed 9 1/2 pounds while the .58 had to be 11 pounds or better with it's 4" longer, much heavier barrel(smaller hole, same barrel size).

[dan parrett]

The barrel is a one inch non tapered GM that's thirty six inches long. I haven't weighed the rifle, but it balances rather nicely for a straight barrel. When we head out to our winter retreat, I'm going to start on one of my two Don Stith parts sets, a fullstock and a halfstock, both in fifty four caliber. I just got into muzzle loading last year, but apparently I've been hooked.

Dan

[Dphariss]

All crescent buttplates are designed to be shot off the arm, not the shoulder.
The shotgun butt found on early rifles, German Jeager and most British rifles is made to be shouldered.
I shoot my 16 bore English style rifle like a shotgun.
I shoot my 54 Hawken like a Schuetzen rifle. This is a disaster with the 16 bore. Will bruise the heck out of your arm.
In fact I am more likely the get marked by the 10 pound Hawken than by the 10+- pound 16 bore which shoots a ball about twice as heavy and 150 gr of FFG Swiss vs 90 gr of FFFG Swiss in the 54.
There is at least one 69 caliber FS Hawken around someplace. John Baird's "Bodacious", made by Andy Baker IIRC. John shot 120 gr from this rifle and it seemed tolerable but I only shot it one shot. I know it did not see a lot of use because of recoil.
I would not build a Hawken from store bought parts over 54-58 caliber. I built a flint Hawken 58 back in the 60s but it had a Numrich barrel that was supposed to be 1 1/8 but was 1 3/16". Rifle was not a problem with 120 gr of FFFG but I made the buttplate like the early two piece sheet metal plates it was wider than the store boughts and while a crescent it did not have the "crown" that the cast plates have in cross section and IIRC rifle weighed about 13 pounds.

Dan

[Daryl]

The crown, carried over into the Winchester lever-guns and single shot was rough on the shoulder in heavier loadings.

[Dphariss]

The crown, carried over into the Winchester lever-guns and single shot was rough on the shoulder in heavier loadings.

The crescent carried over into the BL guns of virtually all brands. Sharps had a "Rifle Buttplate" that was a crescent that was well crowned had to be awful in some calibers.

These are an example of fashion/habit/tradition carried over from the "squirrel rifles" of an earlier time. In most cases they were poorly suited to the guns they were mounted on.

Dan

[BrownBear]

I find that castoff really helps the recoil situation with hooked plates, as well as "shotgun" butts.  I grew up shooting heavy double rifles and singles, along with a whole range of Winchesters with hooked plates.  It wasn't until I tried a ML with castoff that the hooked plates finally quit biting.  The shotgun butts on many of those old doubles and singles (especially horn or checkered steel) could give you a real thumping if there wasn't a bit of castoff.