Chinese Spring Steel

[JCKelly]

Does anyone know a source for actual, guaranteed AMERICAN spring steel of AISI 1070, 1074 or 1075 composition?

Brownell's sells 1095 spring steel. 1095 can make the better spring but it is just a tad less forgiving than is 1070/1075. With my not-so-great abilities I'd prefer to work with 1070 - 1075.

The ASTM (American Society for Testing & Materials) specification is A 682, some suppliers note this, others do not.

mcmaster.com (McMaster-Carr) sells some 1074/1075 to A 682 in limited thickness, 1/8" & under. The broader range of thicknesses are some general purpose 1074/1075 but they will not say what spec, which makes be wonder if this particular assortment is from a different souce, such as China. What the Chinese CAN do and what they WILL do may not be the same thing. There is a perception (experience) in some quarters that the Chinese will tell you whatever you want to hear, about your metal, but that may have little to do with what they actually ship you.

I'm looking for honest American (or European) made 1070 or 1075 (steel with about 0.70 to 0.75% carbon) spring steel strip. Have spent over three decades in the specialty steel industry & more or less keep aware of what is happening these days. I do NOT want Chinese.

[Blacksmoke]

J.C.'  I use old truck/car springs from the junk yard for making my springs.   You will want very old leaf springs for this as they do not have modern composite steel in them and you can work with them much easier.   If you have trouble finding some I can send you a piece of old "carridge" spring that is from circa: 1890.    Hugh Toenjes

[C Wallingford]

JC--
Check Admiral Steel in Chicago. I have used their 1075-1080  for knife springs and they work fine.
I think their website is www.admiralsteel.com

[doug]

     I use 1095 drill rod and forge it to thickness from 3/8 rod.  I have made at least 50 springs from it with no problems.  I used to draw the temper using the burning oil method but of recent have reverted back to molten lead heated to 720 F.  I tried using some metal from a modern automotive leaf spring and did not draw the temper enough.  I suspect it has to be heated to around 800 F to be useful

cheers Doug

[FL-Flintlock]

Unless things have changed since the earthquake and tsunami, in overall ranking, Japan produced the highest quality steels as they have/had the most advanced mills.  #2 Germany; #3 Canada; #4 USA

Vehicle springs are far too inconsistent as the vast majority were sourced only by lowest bidder rather than by quality materials.  As with anything else to do with metals, unless you're obtaining a copy of the written alloy certification directly from the manufacturer, there's no guarantee what you're getting is what's being sold.

[blunderbuss]

J.C.'  I use old truck/car springs from the junk yard for making my springs.   You will want very old leaf springs for this as they do not have modern composite steel in them and you can work with them much easier.   If you have trouble finding some I can send you a piece of old "carridge" spring that is from circa: 1890.    Hugh Toenjes

I'm building a couple of wheellocks and can't find good spring that is thick enough Dixie sells good spring stock but it's not thick enough for a wheelock. the spring I need ia 1/4'' thick x 3/4'' wide x 10" long  two or three pieces I'd be glad to pay what you want
 Blunderbuss

[Dphariss]

J.C.'  I use old truck/car springs from the junk yard for making my springs.   You will want very old leaf springs for this as they do not have modern composite steel in them and you can work with them much easier.   If you have trouble finding some I can send you a piece of old "carridge" spring that is from circa: 1890.    Hugh Toenjes

I'm building a couple of wheellocks and can't find good spring that is thick enough Dixie sells good spring stock but it's not thick enough for a wheelock. the spring I need ia 1/4'' thick x 3/4'' wide x 10" long  two or three pieces I'd be glad to pay what you want
 Blunderbuss

If all else fails MSC sells O-1 in various sizes and it makes decent springs.
But is somewhat harder to work than simple high carbon.
If you get "as rolled" 1095 or similar be sure to do a full anneal as the 1/8" hot rolled I have has serious hard spots in it.

Dan

[Metalshaper]

Dan,

So what are the heat and tempering criteria for O1 ? I have a piece downstairs in the shop bought for other things    but since it's thicker than my Dixie stock.. it might come in handy if i need to get a decent spring out of it!!

Thanks!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

[blunderbuss]

I've tried several different pieces of car spring with the same result they break. How old of a car we looking at?

[LRB]

  PM Jim Kibler, or James Kelly on how to spring temper 01. I can tell you how to HT an 01 knife blade, but spring temper for 01 is a much higher heat. It also requires a higher temper heat than simple carbon steel springs. Dan, a simple full anneal of 1095 won't help much. The common anneal leaves the carbon in a layered condition, and will still cause undue wear on drills ect. It needs a spheroidized anneal which forms the carbon into balls which allow cutting tools to pass through much easier. This is done roughly between 1000°, and 1300°. Give or take a tad. When hardening after spheroidizing, it will need a few minutes of soak at quench heat for the spheres to dissolve and disperse evenly.

[Acer Saccharum]

I heat the 0-1 bright cherry red, quench in oil. For springs I take the temper up to peacock blue(light blue, which comes after dark blue). I know that's not very scientific, but it works. For metal cutting chisels, straw.

[rich pierce]

I think in general that smaller stock is easier to heat treat.  No other explanation for success in my hands!  Most tools, chisels etc I make using 3/16" round stock.

It can be fun using scrap metal, found steel etc to make stuff, but a fella has to be willing to risk wasting some time if making tools and springs.  Pot hooks, decorative stuff, tent stakes, picket pins, flint whappers, etc is a great place to use found iron/steel.  I once found some round stock that threw sparks on a grinder like plain high carbon  steel, got plenty hard in a water quench, but was useless for firesteels.  No sparks; maybe it was alloyed with something for toughness.  I don't know enough for anything but getting into trouble.  Making mainsprings and frizzen springs requires a lot of planning and skill for me and I'd hate to make a beauty and have it fail one way or the other (bend, or snap).  The work going into a knife is plain scary if it would not take or hold a good edge, or chipped easily, etc.

[Blacksmoke]

I am with Tom on quenching and tempering - I have tried the burning of oil for tempering and the molten lead.  Both were inferior to the "color' method - springs have to go to the light blue/grey to temper! and do not be afraid to temper twice. I mean re-polish then draw to color again.      Hugh Toenjes

[Mark Elliott]

As for tempering oil hardening steel for springs,  I always used lead at 650-700F checked with a lead thermometer.   Now I used an oven for all my annealing and tempering.   I do springs at 680F.   The come out gray.

[Dphariss]

Dan,

So what are the heat and tempering criteria for O1 ? I have a piece downstairs in the shop bought for other things    but since it's thicker than my Dixie stock.. it might come in handy if i need to get a decent spring out of it!!

Thanks!

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

I heat to high red and quench in warm 120-150 degree light weight oil 10w with about 30-40% Marvels Mystery Oil (Wally world automotive aisle) then temper to blue or fading blue in a saltpeter bath. When the saltpeter shell melts off and color is right it should be good. But put the thicker sections in the bath first so the thinner parts don't get too hot.
If you forge it, or most hardenable steels, heat the whole piece or it may break off at the hot/cold border.

Dan

[FL-Flintlock]

O-1 is kinda funky in that the temps, times and process can have profoundly different effects on the end result.  Typical anneal is 1450°F minimum 2 hours with soak temp fluctuation not exceeding ±20°F and cooling not to exceed 50°F/Hr to 800°F then still-air cool at a rate that should not exceed 200°F/Hr.  Full anneal is 1450°F for 2 hours, drop to 1275°F hold for 6 hours then still air cool <200°F/Hr.  Heat-treat for hardening, pre-heat to 350°F hold for 30 minutes, increase pre-heat to 525°F hold for 30 minutes, then increase to 925°F for 30 minutes before increasing to the ultimate plateau of 1450-1575°F  The ultimate plateau temperature depends on the structure desired, regardless of the ultimate temp, the soak time should never be less than 2 hours.  Then the work should be quench in 190-400°F thermal quenching oil, anti-foaming brine or salt which again depends on the properties desired in the finished work.  The tempering process needs to be start before the work cools below 120°F, the temp’s range from 300-1050°F with the midrange for non-impact cutting tools and the upper end of the range for springs (visual blue range is only about 545-590°F).  The heat-treat & tempering processes should be repeated at least twice, tempering definitely needs to be done twice and anything that is fully machined should be well packed and sealed before annealing or treating unless it’s being done in an atmospherically controlled furnace.  Tool and other high-strength steels are highly susceptible to thermal shock and should never be tempered via the common bath method.  When tempering at temp’s above 400°F the step & soak method must be used while increasing temperature to the ultimate tempering point to prevent thermal shock

[Dphariss]

O-1 is kinda funky in that the temps, times and process can have profoundly different effects on the end result.  Typical anneal is 1450°F minimum 2 hours with soak temp fluctuation not exceeding ±20°F and cooling not to exceed 50°F/Hr to 800°F then still-air cool at a rate that should not exceed 200°F/Hr.  Full anneal is 1450°F for 2 hours, drop to 1275°F hold for 6 hours then still air cool <200°F/Hr.  Heat-treat for hardening, pre-heat to 350°F hold for 30 minutes, increase pre-heat to 525°F hold for 30 minutes, then increase to 925°F for 30 minutes before increasing to the ultimate plateau of 1450-1575°F  The ultimate plateau temperature depends on the structure desired, regardless of the ultimate temp, the soak time should never be less than 2 hours.  Then the work should be quench in 190-400°F thermal quenching oil, anti-foaming brine or salt which again depends on the properties desired in the finished work.  The tempering process needs to be start before the work cools below 120°F, the temp’s range from 300-1050°F with the midrange for non-impact cutting tools and the upper end of the range for springs (visual blue range is only about 545-590°F).  The heat-treat & tempering processes should be repeated at least twice, tempering definitely needs to be done twice and anything that is fully machined should be well packed and sealed before annealing or treating unless it’s being done in an atmospherically controlled furnace.  Tool and other high-strength steels are highly susceptible to thermal shock and should never be tempered via the common bath method.  When tempering at temp’s above 400°F the step & soak method must be used while increasing temperature to the ultimate tempering point to prevent thermal shock

People keep telling me this.
The O-1 I buy comes annealed.
But I don't have all this sophisticated stuff so I just do O-1 as previously stated.
I use my wife's oven for chisels, gravers, knives and scrapers drawing to about 400 depending on the color that shows. Light to dark "straw" depending on the usage and my attitude.
Now I am sure that its not "optimal" but my favorite wood chisel and two wonderful scrapers, some knives and gravers all seem to work. Plus some main springs. Some have been shot a lot and I can see no difference in them and the ones from 1095 or 1075 though I think the 1075 is the best all around for springs. Bends better hot for one thing.
Here I thought O-1 was pretty good stuff, now I find out I need a laboratory to do heat treats.
A knife maker I know thought that O-1 was a good choice for cutting tools stating it has a fairly wide range of quench temperatures and MSC says that 1/4" or under requires no special soak times, just quench and temper immediately.
Dan

[LRB]

  90% of 01 commonly available is precision ground and spheroidized annealed. The optimal simple treatment for 01 blades or simple cutting tools, after grinding to shape, is a soak at 1250° for maybe an hour, then increase the heat to 1475° or just a tad more, and soak for about 20 minutes using decarb protection. Quench in a medium fast warmed oil. Temper from 400° on up depending on desired hardness. Temper twice for 2 hours each. If forged there are other steps needed before the hardening process. Dan, as far as how you are doing the HT, if it works for you, and you get the results you want and need, what more can be said? To get the max from 01 a temp controlled oven, or salt baths are needed, but not everyone has these. I do not recommend or encourage the use of 01 if one does not have access to the proper HT equipment, but if you have worked out a process that gives you what you want, then I would say go with it. With your years of experience, I would think any serious problems with your methods would have surfaced by now. Just my opinion on it.

[Old Ford2]

The Chinese can't even make egg rolls! How can they make a reliable piece of steel.
They have no quality control, no manufacturing ethics, no shipping ethics.
No I am not not biased, I have just experienced too much of their $#@*.
They can't even make files!
Old Ford

[Dphariss]

This guy seems to like O-1 too and does things much as I do.

http://threeplanes.net/toolsteel.html

Dan

[LRB]

  Not too far off base. But the hardening temp of 01 is little different than other HC steels. All steels/iron, lose magnetic attraction at 1414° which is not enough heat for austenitizing the steel into a good solution and 01 takes more time at temp than simple steels, in order to get there. As I said, even with knife blade thickness, a soak is necessary to get the best result from 01. The carbon goes into solution quite quickly, but the other alloys in it take more time. As I also said, if your methods work for your purposes, by all means do as you do. It breaks down to if "good enough", is good enough, or does one want or need better. If "good enough" works for you, then that may be all you need.

[FL-Flintlock]

  Not too far off base. But the hardening temp of 01 is little different than other HC steels. All steels/iron, lose magnetic attraction at 1414° which is not enough heat for austenitizing the steel into a good solution and 01 takes more time at temp than simple steels, in order to get there. As I said, even with knife blade thickness, a soak is necessary to get the best result from 01. The carbon goes into solution quite quickly, but the other alloys in it take more time. As I also said, if your methods work for your purposes, by all means do as you do. It breaks down to if "good enough", is good enough, or does one want or need better. If "good enough" works for you, then that may be all you need.

Exactly.  O-1 is nice stuff but you’re not getting the full value from it if you’re not following the prescribed methods.  It doesn’t take a laboratory but a decent tight-beam non-contact thermometer is quite handy.  Some method of pack and seal along with the ability to control the heat within a reasonable tolerance.  Of course, if you intent to push O-1 to the limits of its capabilities, you’ll need enough equipment to do so but even with the bare minimum you can still do okay if you stay pretty close to the prescribed methods.  One thing I forgot earlier, if you’re packing work, you must allow for the time differential between the time the outside of the pack reaches the target temp and the inner most portion of the work attains the same temperature – that’s critical for both the final step in the pre-heat cycle and the hold time once the target temperature is reached.

[FL-Flintlock]

The Chinese can't even make egg rolls! How can they make a reliable piece of steel.
They have no quality control, no manufacturing ethics, no shipping ethics.
No I am not not biased, I have just experienced too much of their $#@*.
They can't even make files!
Old Ford

Well, not to get into a urination contest over this but Chinese mfg has advanced considerably in the last 15 years or so.  China is a big place and not everything coming out there is junk – BTW if you have had good Chinese food, you haven’t been to Evergreen buffet in Inverness Florida.

China’s markets are no different than our own as far as quality is concerned, some stuff is “built to price” and other stuff is built to “quality”.  The stuff built to price is mostly junk, the stuff built to quality is just that.  Chinese screwdrivers I get from the local wholesale for $1-2 are just as good as Klein’s costing a whole lot more and they make great donors for chisels and other tooling and come with a built-in handle that’s almost indestructible.  I have impact sockets up to 1” drive that have held-up as good and sometimes better than Snap-On & Mac.  You’d also be amazed at how much stuff you’re buying that comes from China and you don’t even know it.  There’s a company near Berwick, PA that has all the components of their items made in China, the plant in PA merely assembles them and puts the “Made in USA” stickers on along with a large price tag and there’s a lot more of that going on than most people can imagine like the USA drill maker that uses 100% Chinese drill rod blanks.  Take an International-Harvester semi power unit apart and you’ll be hard pressed to find any components not made in China, Mexico or anywhere else other than the USA.

[Dphariss]

The Chinese can't even make egg rolls! How can they make a reliable piece of steel.
They have no quality control, no manufacturing ethics, no shipping ethics.
No I am not not biased, I have just experienced too much of their $#@*.
They can't even make files!
Old Ford

Well, not to get into a urination contest over this but Chinese mfg has advanced considerably in the last 15 years or so.  China is a big place and not everything coming out there is junk – BTW if you have had good Chinese food, you haven’t been to Evergreen buffet in Inverness Florida.

China’s markets are no different than our own as far as quality is concerned, some stuff is “built to price” and other stuff is built to “quality”.  The stuff built to price is mostly junk, the stuff built to quality is just that.  Chinese screwdrivers I get from the local wholesale for $1-2 are just as good as Klein’s costing a whole lot more and they make great donors for chisels and other tooling and come with a built-in handle that’s almost indestructible.  I have impact sockets up to 1” drive that have held-up as good and sometimes better than Snap-On & Mac.  You’d also be amazed at how much stuff you’re buying that comes from China and you don’t even know it.  There’s a company near Berwick, PA that has all the components of their items made in China, the plant in PA merely assembles them and puts the “Made in USA” stickers on along with a large price tag and there’s a lot more of that going on than most people can imagine like the USA drill maker that uses 100% Chinese drill rod blanks.  Take an International-Harvester semi power unit apart and you’ll be hard pressed to find any components not made in China, Mexico or anywhere else other than the USA.

Well at least as far as I know they are not shipping poisonous dog and cat food over here anymore. Or poisonous childrens toys. Or poisonous sheet rock. I guess that's an improvement.
It is nearly impossible to buy stuff not made in China. This is a result of the politicians caving to our industry who wanted to make stuff with slave labor overseas  to increase the profit margins.
Has nothing to do with quality.

Dan

[Dennis Glazener]

I am locking this thread, we have discussed this enogh.
Dennis