Differences

[whitebear]

Please clarify something for me.  What is the difference in a shimmel, a barn gun and a po-boy?  Aren't they really the same thing?

[rich pierce]

 

Please clarify something for me.  What is the difference in a shimmel, a barn gun and a po-boy?  Aren't they really the same thing?

They are words and words are used differently by different people.

"Schimmel" is a word used first by Chuck Dixon to describe a type of plain, early 1800's rifles found in and around the Reading area of Pennsylvania. These often had just one or two ramrod thimbles, might or might not have a buttplate, and might have a strap metal guard instead of a nice rifle or fowler guard. So you see this term applies to guns from one period and place, and not to plain guns made in the South etc.

"Barn gun" is another term for guns like I described above, but geographically might extend beyond a very small part of Pennsylyvania and also might extend across a greater time span.  It's a little more general, but not appropriate for a plain, simple Southern rifle in my opinion.

"Poor-boy" is a  buckskinner term for a Southern rifle with forged iron mounts.  It might or might not lack some of the parts we're used to seeing.

Some makers use these terms indiscriminately, adding to my confusion.  These are my working definitions; others may vary because words are used differently by different people in different places and at different times. As far as I know, none of these terms were ever used in the original flintlock period.

[JTR]

I once posted some pictures of a rifle that had been found in a barn, and called it a barn gun in the post.
The guys quickly corrected me in that it wasn't a barn gun, even if it had been found in a barn! 

Rich pretty well spelled out the differences.

John

[Dphariss]

Poor boy was the common term in the 1960s at least.

I never heard Schimmel until much later and barn gun even later.
Since there are 1894 win Barn guns I consider this to be a poor description
Dan

[bob in the woods]

My Great Uncle kept his 1894 Win. in the tool shed. Guess his was a " shed gun" 

[Lucky R A]

   A poor boy was a sandwich you ate, In centeral PA we always called a plain cheap gun a barn gun even if it was not a muzzleloader.  They were usually brought into service to dispatch pigs  for butcherin' etc..  Makes me hungry for pawnhaus..

[flintriflesmith]

In some parts of the south--including southwest VA-- the "olde timey" term for these utility grade muzzleloading rifles was "hog rifle" because killing hogs was one primary use. We usually kept them behind the door and not out in the barn!

Gary

[B Shipman]

As we use terms today, I would say that Rich pretty much nailed it.

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Please clarify something for me.  What is the difference in a shimmel, a barn gun and a po-boy?  Aren't they really the same thing?

They are words and words are used differently by different people.

"Schimmel" is a word used first by Chuck Dixon to describe a type of plain, early 1800's rifles found in and around the Reading area of Pennsylvania. These often had just one or two ramrod thimbles, might or might not have a buttplate, and might have a strap metal guard instead of a nice rifle or fowler guard. So you see this term applies to guns from one period and place, and not to plain guns made in the South etc.

"Barn gun" is another term for guns like I described above, but geographically might extend beyond a very small part of Pennsylyvania and also might extend across a greater time span.  It's a little more general, but not appropriate for a plain, simple Southern rifle in my opinion.

"Poor-boy" is a  buckskinner term for a Southern rifle with forged iron mounts.  It might or might not lack some of the parts we're used to seeing.

Some makers use these terms indiscriminately, adding to my confusion.  These are my working definitions; others may vary because words are used differently by different people in different places and at different times. As far as I know, none of these terms were ever used in the original flintlock period.

Still sounds like we are talking about the same thing. perhaps someone could post some pictures showing the subtle differences.

[rich pierce]

Nothing subtle about it.  A couple contemporary schimmels by Scott Shea are in the links below.  Like they should, they display architecture specific to a discrete period and place in Pennsylvania.  You can't mistake them for a Southern poor-boy any easier than thinking a Mustang is a Camaro.



http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2011/02/northampton-schimmel-by-scott-shea.html
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2009/12/scott-shea.html

Poor boys by Charlie Wallingford.  Note the lean architecture, narrow buttplate, straight lined, iron forged furniture.  See the rounded tail on the lock, the small bore.
http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/05/poor-squirrel-rifle-by-charlie.html






Barn gun by Don Getz.  Note that the style is earlier than most of the Berks/Northampton schimmels. No buttplate on this one but you have to look close to notice that!





Perhaps the word schimmel was unnecessary to describe the barn guns found in the locale around Dixon's shop but it helps some of us picture a very distinct set of barn guns, limited in their timeframe, architectural stylings and period in which they were made.

[Kermit]

Thanks for the illustrated explanation, Rich. I'm wondering if you might add another layer of information. Is there a range of bore sizes appropriate to each? For instance, is a shimmel most appropriately .50 cal and up, or could it be, say, as small as .40? Should a poor boy be smaller, such as .30 to .36? Those numbers are plucked indiscriminately from the ether, so don't (necessarily) mean anything, I assume. Just wondering here...

[rich pierce]

Well, this is really getting into the fuzzy area.  I'd say many to most schimmels were smoothbores, and in general smoothies tend to be a little bigger bore. It's a lot of labor to rifle a barrel and there's cost with that, and maybe it doesn't make sense to buy a super plain rifle that still costs a bunch if you're going to shoot racoons in the henhouse with it.  The Pennsylvania guys who've handled a few could give you a better answer.  Poor-boys or Southern mountain rifles arose in the late flint period when the trend was to small bores, and almost all were rifled.  Probably many original poor boys fell into the .32-.40 range originally, but I defer to folks who have handled more originals. I think bores under .32 were rare.  It's a mighty small ball; hard for me to handle and load, and rammers are hard to make and use.  Besides, if a deer did present itself, one would be limited to head shots.  I don't think our forefathers hesitated to use a .36 on deer.

Those generalities on caliber being said, most customers want what they want in style and also want what they want in caliber and weight, so many guns are made today in bigger bores than would have been common on period guns of the same style and period.  It's not rare to see a contemporary poor-boy in .50 caliber.  And the earliest root poor boys, the "black rifles" of yore dating to the 1700's, were of larger bore.  Ian Pratt's early "black rifle" below.

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2010/02/ian-pratt-rifle.html

[Kermit]

Let's see if I can get this any fuzzier. How about wood? Maple proliferates today, and seems to be used in all areas, schools, and periods pretty much. But I wonder about these simpler guns and whether they were made using easier to work (softer) woods like walnut and cherry. And how about ash--especially ash? Were these woods found more in particular areas and time periods?

[rich pierce]

Oi, are you looking to enroll in longrifles 101?    

In general gunmakers used the species of stock wood they were used to using whether making plain rifles or ones with all the bells and whistles. 

I mostly know a little about Pennsylvania longrifles.  Walnut was rarely used to build Pennsylvania longrifles after the Revolutionary War through the Golden Age.  It was used a lot on trade guns from PA in the late flint and percussion periods.  Ash was rarely used in Pennsylvania though ash stock blanks were listed at Christians Spring.  Cherry, same story, present on a few very early Pennsylvania rifles; the Deschler rifle coming to mind.