Author Topic: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)  (Read 16136 times)

Mattole

  • Guest
Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« on: June 21, 2011, 10:04:06 PM »
I have been in the process of doing a rather ambitious rebuild of a Lyman GPR off and on over the past three months. I filed off the lettering from the barrel, reshaped and re-inletted the breech tang, lengthened the wrist, thinned the forearm, reshaped the lock and opposite side molding, cheek piece, and buttstock, including changing the angle of the buttplate. I thought I was doing pretty good for my first time trying something like this. I kept referencing photos of original Hawkens and of course was not able to make a copy, but the work I was doing was certainly inspired by the originals.

Then my wife's dear mother (a close friend of mine) died unexpectedly, and a previously-dormant case of Lyme disease flared up. I tried to continue working on the rifle despite the challenges, and that was my mistake. For anyone who has ever fought Lyme you know that the treatment can make you feel worse than the disease and it can affect one's cognitive abilities severely. And of course grief is a real snot-kicker as well, as we all know.

Anyway, for some inexplicable reason I decided to change the buttplate angle even more, and also I decided to do away with any remnant of the Lyman "perch belly". In my life event distraction and brain fog I lost track of what I was doing and ended up taking way too much material off the bottom of the buttstock, and this is what I ended up with (buttplate is sitting loosely on stock - it fits better than shown):




I always knew that some of the metal of the bottom of the buttplate would have to be removed when the extreme angle of the stock Lyman buttplate was corrected, but I think I went way overboard. It seems to me that I took a good 1/2-3/4" too much material off.. Lord was I discouraged when I realized what I had done!

The other problem I ran into was that I went through 5 attempts to drill the holes for the buttplate correctly but could not get them right. As you know, those puppies have to be exactly right or the buttplate will be askew. The task seems beyond me, even when I use a center punch to start the hole etc.

My hope is that I can salvage this stock instead of tossing it out and having to pay a considerable sum for a new one that will still be in need of modification. Plus this particular stock has much sentimental value to me, since I was doing the work while grieving my wife's mother's passing.

As a solution I was thinking of taking it to someone who could add some wood of a similar grain to the bottom of the buttstock to flesh out what I have taken away. I don't care if the repair can be seen, since this will be my wilderness hunting rig and will likely gain much character over the years, even with the good care I give to my rifles. There aren't any traditional gunbuilders that I am aware of where I am in northern northern California, but perhaps a skilled woodworker would be able to do it, even without rifle building experience. I don't think I have much choice..

I also need someone to drill those danged buttplate holes for me!

On a positive note, the process, with all of its flaws, has accomplished much of what I set out to do, which was to take an inexpensive used gun and gain practice in several elements of gunbuilding that I will use on a more expensive longrifle kit someday. Still, I want this process to have the end result of a good, serviceable and fairly attractive rifle.

Anyway I just wanted to share what was going on with my new-to-all-of-this Lyman rebuild.

Thanks for reading and good day to you.

Kevin

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19695
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2011, 10:09:27 PM »
We've seen originals with pieces spliced onto them, sometimes from a split that happened because of a fall, or shrinkage, etc.  Get a piece of straight grain walnut and splice it on.  Use a couple dowels in addition to the glue.
Andover, Vermont

Offline bgf

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1403
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2011, 10:44:28 PM »
Before you do a splice, maybe you should post a full profile of the buttstock.  I know you know you took too much off, but it may still be OK, maybe some plains rifle expert can tell you if there is one in a museum with a similar profile, and it looks like the pitch is functional. 

Those holes are tricky, especially when the hole is already countersunk -- perhaps try securing the buttplate with tape (for example) and using a really big punch that contacts the edges of the counter sink (after drilling a little clearance space under the nose of the punch)?  Just trying to help.  It seems like a hole either goes perfect or it stays screwed up :).

Seems like you are doing what you set out to do!  Don't outsource it until you have given up completely.

billd

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2011, 11:13:18 PM »
Have the holes in the butt plate welded closed, plug the holes in the stock with dowels and redrill.   If the profile is acceptable to you, just file the bottom of the butt plate off.

Bill

Offline kutter

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 718
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2011, 11:41:51 PM »
Remove the counter sink angle cut from the butt plate holes. Make them instead a straight down flat bottomed countersink  of a diameter just barely large enough to clean up the old one.

The new flat sided/bottom countersink doesn't have to go all the way to the bottom of the old cut,,just deep enough to give you a decent seat for a new screw.
The new butt plate screw(s) will be flat head machine screws with a suitably course thread. A #10 course threaded screw works well in dense wood.
Side lock bolts work well for the screws though you'll have to extend the thread up towards the head more and then shorten overall.
The round head of the lock bolt is flat bottomed already, but usually has to be trimmed in diameter to fit your new counter sink diameter.

Drill pilot hole for the screw in the stock after plugging the old one. Center as carefully as you can and drill.
(try the size you think is correct on scrap wood first and check fit of screw before doing the stock)

If the hole is a bit off as has been the problem before,,the lack of the tapered countersink will avoid the butt plate being pulled to the side in tightening.
Leave the screw head a few .000" smaller in diameter than counter sink to allow for any side to side misallaignment 'push'. The flat bottom contact surfaces of the bolt and countersink will push the plate downward squarely.


Odd Fellow

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2011, 11:55:54 PM »
Something I found that works well, find a drill bit of the same diameter of the current hole then just slightly drill it in then you have a cone shape hole then you take the right bit for the screw and continue the drilling operation then wax the screw.

JMHO

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2011, 12:08:27 AM »
Here are a few images of the entire buttstock. What think you - too small at the buttplate? Do I need to have another piece of walnut spliced on the bottom?

Thanks for all your suggestions.








Odd Fellow

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2011, 12:14:35 AM »
I cant figure what the measure is on the height of the butt plate could you give the measure from the top point of the butt plate to the toe point on the stock?

to me it looks good tho!

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2011, 12:18:09 AM »
Just measured and it comes to 4 and 1/16th inches.

Odd Fellow

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #9 on: June 22, 2011, 12:23:09 AM »
yea you are off about 3/16" in length but I don't think that's enough to worry about adding wood. Some much more studied and experienced people know more than me tho

greybeard

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2011, 12:25:23 AM »
Four inches is enough . Looks ok to me. Perhaps a bit more positive pitch than you need but I would leave it alone. You will be surprised how good it is going to look when finished.  Bob

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2011, 01:02:08 AM »
Thanks for your encouragement, gentlemen. I will stay with the stock as is, and see if I can get my confidence back up to redrill the buttplate. I like the idea of having a welder fill in the existing hole in the buttplate itself so that I can center it more. My father in law is a welder. Are there any special considerations that he should know about in order to weld the hole closed?

Offline Bill of the 45th

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Gaylord, Michigan
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #12 on: June 22, 2011, 01:13:46 AM »
You did good, there is so much fat on those Lyman's.  With out removing wood at the toe add a toe plate that angle's down , and I think you have it.  By inletting the top, and not the bottom it will reverse the perch belly, with pout taking any more off the butt.  Now you just gotta remove some from the fore end.  Good job while under the influence.  I've been told to remove wood til it's scary, then remove just a little more, and you have done that  Set it down, and look at it from 10 or 12 feet and you will see what more you have to remove.

Bill
Bill Knapp
Over the Hill, What Hill, and when did I go over it?

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #13 on: June 22, 2011, 01:19:17 AM »
Bill, can you show me an example of what you mean by the angling-down un-inletted toe plate? I'm so new at this that I don't know what you are referring to. Can I accomplish this by modifying the toeplate that the GPR came with?

Offline Bill of the 45th

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Gaylord, Michigan
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2011, 01:50:37 AM »
Matt, I would make a long toe plate which is appropriate for the style, say 6 or 7 ".  I would then  angle the inlet from the depth of the plate closest to the trigger to zero at the butt plate.  Hope that Makes sense.  You can even put a small curve to the toe plate to make it the opposite of the perch, butt very subtle.

Bill
Bill Knapp
Over the Hill, What Hill, and when did I go over it?

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2011, 02:29:53 AM »
Sorry Bill, I'm still not picturing it yet. Maybe another cup of hot cocoa will help me..

I am tempted to try to make a new toeplate (for experience sake) but will have to research in how to do it and what tools it requires, as I have not idea yet.

But I didn't screw up the buttstock - that's great news!

Offline A.Merrill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2011, 05:17:32 AM »
    Lyman wishes their stocks looked that good. I think old Jake & Sam would be proud of it. Drill and plug your old screw holes, just remember that dowels are softer wood, go slow when you redrill. Cut off the bp and file the sides down to a near fit. One thing you will have to watch for is the inside part of the bp is concaved and if you file into it, it will change the way the bp fits. So shape the bp first, then fit it to the stock.    Good Luck    AL
Alan K. Merrill

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #17 on: June 22, 2011, 06:05:17 AM »
I have been trying to pay homage to the Hawken brothers in my simple attempt here - you honor me highly with your comment, Al!

Now, should I have the stock sanded down to its final finish before shaping the buttplate and toeplate to fit the stock contours?

Offline Swampwalker

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 387
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #18 on: June 22, 2011, 05:14:45 PM »
The proportions look fine, I wouldn't worry about it a bit.  Two other areas you might consider adjusting - the lock panels look awkward; I would start the taper further forward, and give these a nice graceful shape.  Also, there still looks like there's a slight 'hump' about where the rear mount of the triggerguard meets the stock.  Sight down the toe towards this area and see if you need to remove a bit more material.  Otherwise, it looks like a big improvement over the original shape.

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2011, 08:09:39 PM »
The proportions look fine, I wouldn't worry about it a bit.  Two other areas you might consider adjusting - the lock panels look awkward; I would start the taper further forward, and give these a nice graceful shape.  Also, there still looks like there's a slight 'hump' about where the rear mount of the triggerguard meets the stock.  Sight down the toe towards this area and see if you need to remove a bit more material.  Otherwise, it looks like a big improvement over the original shape.

Thanks for the feedback, Swampwalker. I agree that the lock panels still look awkward, and I will see what I can do to correct them - though I wonder if I have enough material remaining to start the taper farther forward... This is an area where I think it took it just a bit too fast, and in lighting that was not ideal = mistakes and lessons learned! And yes I do see that hump by the triggerguard mount. Actually I was not quite done with the stock and was planning to remove that.

Thanks again,
Kevin

Offline A.Merrill

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 807
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2011, 10:28:08 PM »
    Slow down, once a gun starts to get near done its easy to miss things and that's when you need to sit back and take a long look at it. Get the BP on, once it is screw down. Cut it off and file the sides down to the wood, then round it down to the wood. Now try to close up any gaps you have by inletting it. Once that is done use a fine cut file and smooth out the wood and metal together. Look at the lock molding and the side plate molding they are completely diffrent. Get the lock molding shaped down to where you like it (look at some pics of Hawkens lock moldings) then make a rubbing of it and transfer it to the other side and shape it. Once you have all that done, take another good look at the stock, this time cover up the lock and forearm, just look at the butt, hows it look to you. then cover up the butt and forearm, take a good look at the wrist an lock area, then the forearm. If you do it this way it will keep your eye from drifting off to other areas. I was told this back when I started. Get that done and lets see some more pic's. Then you can start sanding. And don't forget Jake and Sam has a eye on you  ;D    Good Luck    AL
« Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 10:30:34 PM by A.Merrill »
Alan K. Merrill

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2011, 10:53:08 PM »
Thanks very much for your great advice, Al!

The shape of the lock moulding has been challenging partly because there doesn't seem to be any standard among the original Hawkens I have seen pictures of - indeed there seems to be much variation in the way that part of the rifles were handled. I'll just see what I can do to improve on what I have done so far to make it more pleasing to the eye.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #22 on: June 22, 2011, 11:01:10 PM »
I suggest that you look at this one by D Taylor Sapergia:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14977.0
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Mattole

  • Guest
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #23 on: June 22, 2011, 11:23:53 PM »
I love the shape of those lock panels - however, unless I am mistaken, I have removed too much material already to get to the shape that Taylor accomplished..

Offline RobertS

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 388
Re: Lyman Rebuild Went Well Until... Big OOOPS (Help..)
« Reply #24 on: June 23, 2011, 06:21:54 AM »
I agree with others, I think it looks very good as it is.  I look forward to seeing it finished, and I suspect you will be very pleased with it.