Water as patch lube

[bgf]

My GM .50 loves spit patches, but I can only supply so much.  A couple of days ago, I just used water (saw someone else (Frenchman?) talking about it here), and it works like a charm -- I don't think the barrel ever got dirty and it loaded really easily .  Part of me says good enough, just use water, but the troublesome part isn't happy with a simple solution like that and feels the need to complicate things.  This is not for hunting (I have solutions for that) but only shooting at range, matches, etc., so is there any reason I should add anything?  If so, what?   

[Frizzen]

Add a little water soulable oil say 5% and you have just about the perfect lube. Use 2oz. to a quart of water.

[Daryl]

BFG- the target will tell you which is best - spit or water, or water with something else added.  Your rifle might want some water soluble oil, or it might destroy it's accuracy- the target, from a rest, is the only way to find out. Too, different lubes require different powder charges or even different powder granulations and charges.

Experimentation is where & how acuracy is discovered.

[bgf]

Frizzen,
Thanks.  What brand, etc., water soluble oil should I try?  Any idea what that oil is adding to the mixture, i.e. is it adding lubrication, viscosity, both, or what?

Daryl,
I agree, and that is pretty much what I'm doing.  This barrel likes spit a lot, but preliminary trials seem to indicate that water is a good substitute (and easier on me).  On the other hand, I never hear about people using water by itself much and wondered why.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

...and change only one component at a time during the testing.

[Daryl]

Yes - Taylor hit a MOST important aspect of testing.

I add a bit of oil to my winter windshield washer fluid, (alcohol and water for the most part) to add viscosity  to reduce the evapouration rate.  I use neetsfoot oil.  The oil can be used by itself, but so far, I feel the WWWF + the neetsfoot oil, in my .32 and .40, gives better accuracy over a wider range of powder charges.  One of these day,s perhaps I'll get a concrete test on that premise.  I shake the WWWF + oil, then apply it to the pre-cut patches, which I carry in tins. (sucrets, candy, track's snuff or flint and steel containers, etc.) Done this way, there is virtually no separation, it seems.  In a container, the loose solution will separate, but in the cloth, it doesn't happen.

Straight oil, ie: with Hoppe's Plus, Neetsfoot Oil, Lehigh Valley Lube, I've found in both my .45 and .40, require at least another 10gr. of powder over what the water based lubes will shoot.
For me, Olive oil has proven to be a poor lube additive -  in the ML and in a bullet lube in the BP ctg. rifles. Innacuracy and fouling are it's main problems.(which is too bad as my wife buys it by the litre - ie: free to me)

[Roger Fisher]

My shooting gear box needs an axle and wheels under it already, so I'll continue to depend on the natural supply of spit.

[Skychief]

I have a Bill Large barreled 45 caliber that shoots best with watered patches.   I think I wrote about it here a while back.   Here or somewhere else anyway.  As said, those rifles will tell you what they want.   I seldom find the answer to "why?" as each rifle seems to have a different concoction that it shoots the best with.

[Frizzen]

I will say one thing. This is based on fact. If a barrel won't shoot with a soulable oil and water 5% mix,
it won't shoot with anything.

[Dphariss]

Some rifles shoot with very well with lubes that don't lubricate well.
I shoot patches lubed with water soluble oil 7 to 1 water/oil then allowed to air dry. The dry patches have a slight "feel" of having some lubricant on them.
This makes a low lube patch that shoots OK but requires wiping between shots ,uniformly, and a patch over the powder in the 50 I have used it in or the patches blow. Patches lubed with animal oil or tallow do not blow. Same load/patch/ball. So something goes on that is not readily apparent. 

As Daryl and Taylor have hit it on the load development work.
Try things one at a time.

The high friction lubes may give a lower velocity standard deviation since the ball is harder to push up the barrel doing about the same thing as a "high load inertia" load in a BPCR.
Dan

[Muleskinner]

What brand or type water soluable oil do you use?

[Daryl]

The high friction lubes may give a lower velocity standard deviation since the ball is harder to push up the barrel doing about the same thing as a "high load inertia" load in a BPCR.
Dan

That's the way I figure it, Dan, and is why to get the good accuracy with oils vs. spit or water, the oils require more powder being used, to get the pressure up to make the loads more consistant. The reasoning is my opinion, of course, but the need for more powder is real in every rifle I shoot - except the .32, but a concrete accuracy test has not been performed with it, yet using an oil.

The .58 is the only rifle I really did a comprehensive (for me) test, spit vs. oil - in that rifle, bear grease was used for oil. 

My SD's with the spit were well under 10fps - usually 5fps to 8fps, while no oil lubed SD's were under 20fps- generally 30fps to 40fps, shot to shot.  I ran charges from 90gr. to 200gr. in the test.  Spit always out-shot oil for accuracy, however oil was OK for hunting accuracy.  Spit definitely has the most consistant ballistics. Consistancy is why it shoots so accurately and why so many guys like Roger Fisher use it, even when  teflon patching.  This isn't to say you cannot develope an accurate load with a different lube, you most certainly can, but I feel it's easier with spit or perhaps a water based lube - without much oil involved- actually the less oil, the better, as consistancy goes.

[Dphariss]

The high friction lubes may give a lower velocity standard deviation since the ball is harder to push up the barrel doing about the same thing as a "high load inertia" load in a BPCR.
Dan

That's the way I figure it, Dan, and is why to get the good accuracy with oils vs. spit or water, the oils require more powder being used, to get the pressure up to make the loads more consistant. The reasoning is my opinion, of course, but the need for more powder is real in every rifle I shoot - except the .32, but a concrete accuracy test has not been performed with it, yet using an oil.

The .58 is the only rifle I really did a comprehensive (for me) test, spit vs. oil - in that rifle, bear grease was used for oil.  

My SD's with the spit were well under 10fps - usually 5fps to 8fps, while no oil lubed SD's were under 20fps- generally 30fps to 40fps, shot to shot.  I ran charges from 90gr. to 200gr. in the test.  Spit always out-shot oil for accuracy, however oil was OK for hunting accuracy.  Spit definitely has the most consistant ballistics. Consistancy is why it shoots so accurately and why so many guys like Roger Fisher use it, even when  teflon patching.  This isn't to say you cannot develope an accurate load with a different lube, you most certainly can, but I feel it's easier with spit or perhaps a water based lube - without much oil involved- actually the less oil, the better, as consistancy goes.

I had never tested it but I know how important load inertia is in BPCR which I have done more extensive testing on (one of the reasons I don't do much of it anymore I suppose).
Heavier loads in MLs add to the load inertia since part of the powder column moves with the bullet.
With the relatively light RB there is little inertia and a not so slick patch lube can help increase this.
Whale/Neatsfoot/Bear oil can be reduced in lubricating qualities by squeezing the patches to dry them. A friend has used a bench vise, leaving not much oil on the patch. But like the Schoultz  method wiping is needed.
The water based patch lubes do not require wiping in most cases.
I have been shooting tallow, beef mostly, with pretty good results. I boiled the fat in water 3 times changing the water each time letting it cool over night and find its non-corrosive. I loaded a rifle for Bear season and left it loaded for a month+ and then pulled the loads when I needed to gun for display. The patches were still exactly the same color as new. I was mildly concerned that the tallow might have some salt or other corrosive elements left in it, if it ever had them, but apparently this is not the case.
It works well for patch lube and will allow shooting without wiping for 10-15 shots if shot at a leisurely pace as in a chunk or turkey match if the barrel is blown down before reloading. Though in MT and WY the humidity out on the plains gets really low at times. How it will perform at 90+ degrees and <10 relative humidity with a firing rate that heats the barrel  I am not really sure.

Dan

[bgf]

I appreciate the input from everybody, but I'm still not sure of what I was originally asking about: is water equivalent to spit in everyone's experience or is this just a lucky occurrence; if there is a difference what is it?  Is water plus 5% soluble oil equivalent to spit? 

Also, when I hear the phrase "water soluble oil" I'm thinking cutting oil, or does it instead apply to a large number of organic oils that will mix to one degree or the other with water?

[Daryl]

I wouldn't try to out think it or to quantify everything - merely use what works. Water soluble oil used to be merely cutting oil, usually - the "Moose Milk" written up in the early 70's.  Apparently Balistol is water soluble oil, and maybe it's the early cutting oil, I don't know - don't care, really. I use what's cheap and has been working for me. I can't complain about 1/2" groups at 50 yards single bag benched, with open sights & no wiping.

[westerner]

Never ceases to amaze me how such a simple question can draw so many wonderfully complicated posts.  The answer is so simple.      If you're using water in a container, fill the container, then spit in it. Then you have a whole lot of spit patch and you wont be running out.  Thats how they did it in the old days.  Spit patch.

                       Joe.   

 

[Skychief]

I have seen that Copenhagen juice further increases precision.

[westerner]

I have seen that Copenhagen juice further increases precision.

I guess we wasnt so funny Skychief.   My mom used to tell me, if at first you dont succeed, try try again.  There will be other opportunities. 

              Joe. 


                             

[Don Steele]

Here's another common sense tip, along the lines of Taylor's comment:
Unless you really just enjoy accumulating pages of data for your notebook, it helps to decide in advance what level of precision you require. When you get it, STOP YOURSELF.
From that point forward...just ENJOY.
I know..easy to say. For myself, I have a 3-ring binder full of load data, combinations going back to the 1970's...and that's just for 2 muzzleloading rifles. (I have other notebooks for the "other" guns) Most of those loads were easily capable of putting meat on the table, but there's always "The Quest" for better. I have a chronograph....but so far, have avoided taking it out with my muzzleloader. That opens up a WHOLE NEW set of numbers to seek.
 

[Roger Fisher]

I appreciate the input from everybody, but I'm still not sure of what I was originally asking about: is water equivalent to spit in everyone's experience or is this just a lucky occurrence; if there is a difference what is it?  Is water plus 5% soluble oil equivalent to spit? 

Also, when I hear the phrase "water soluble oil" I'm thinking cutting oil, or does it instead apply to a large number of organic oils that will mix to one degree or the other with water?

In my mind (which can be screwed up) spit includes a natural schmutz (lub)and the machinst's water sol oil adds that lub to plain water!  (maybe)

[Swampwalker]

Well spit is water mixed with digestive enzymes - basically large protein macromolocules, which gives it that viscous quality, and is probably slightly acidic.  It's composition is going to vary depending on your hydration level, and what you've recently eaten.  There's probably very few fatty molocules in spit.  Water with a bit of gelatine and a few drops of vinegar probably more closely resembles spit than does water with soluble oil. 
I'm not advocating a water/gelatine/vinigar mixure as a lube, but hey, who knows?

[Daryl]

I did a test many years ago, using water and spit, one against the other. I found spit shot cleaner, or at east always loaded easier and shot more accurately in the rifle used.  I did not work up an accuracy load for straight water, rather tested my spit patch accuracy load with plain water and received a reduction in acuracy.  It is quite possible, that in increae or decrease on powder charge by 5gr. would have had them shooting identically, I don't know. 
The difference in accuracy was something only someone looking for absolutes would be interested in.  A more casual shooter might not even notice.

[westerner]

Spit works better than water for me too.  Water doesnt have the lubricating action spit does.  Spit must break the surface tension of the water like Zorro bore solvent?  

I was married to a nice woman once who had the slipperyest spit I ever saw.  She would stand next to me while I shot with a bunch of patches in her cheek.  When I needed a patch I'd tap her cheek and she'd stick one out there where I could get hold of it. Sounds easy, but they were so slippery I dropped a lot of them.  She was real short and the top of her head was flat. Used to set my beer on her head.   I sorta miss her.  

Zorro bore solvent works fantastic in my slug gun.  Much better than straight water.  

                             Joe.

[Roger Fisher]

Spit works better than water for me too.  Water doesnt have the lubricating action spit does.  Spit must break the surface tension of the water like Zorro bore solvent?  

I was married to a nice woman once who had the slipperyest spit I ever saw.  She would stand next to me while I shot with a bunch of patches in her cheek.  When I needed a patch I'd tap her cheek and she'd stick one out there where I could get hold of it. Sounds easy, but they were so slippery I dropped a lot of them.  She was real short and the top of her head was flat. Used to set my beer on her head.   I sorta miss her.  

Zorro bore solvent works fantastic in my slug gun.  Much better than straight water.  

                             Joe.

priceless

[Frizzen]

Sounds like a pretty level headed woman to me.