Re: gotta go up another size, need .620 balls

[plastikosmd]

Thx!

As stated, experiment. Happy to pay. Target gun , 6 shots in 1.5" w redfield sights, 100yrd, 120g 2f. I don't want to thicken patch much beyond the 22 tho Teflon I got. Thank u for the help

[Daryl]

Using .020" and a .615" and getting burning? No lube, I get that, but I'm surprised.  Deep, round bottom rifling maybe?

1" to 1 1/2" is what my .69 does at 100 meters (only 5 shots), off single bag with open Express sights.  I'm using .006" undersized ball along with .030" denim (12oz) patch, spit, or WWWF + Neetsfoot oil or spit, shot dirty - no wiping, 165gr. 2F.

That 'heavy' .60 should do much better that that - I understand the quest. A tighter combo yet will be needed to allow  more powder.

[plastikosmd]

Agree, it isn't really burning? It is small circular holes cut by the rifling? It has progressively gotten better with tighter fit. Went from burning, to cutting all the way around, just outside of the ball, to just an occasional small hole or 2. Open to suggestions but it really got better going from .600 to .605,.610 then .615

[Daryl]

So - it's a .62? or a .60?  Deep, round bottom rifling?  False Muzzle? Sounds as if the lands are cutting slightly - that will happen if they aren't smoothed well with no sharp edges, especially when the load gets tight.

[plastikosmd]

it is a 60, as marked, think that is top of land to top of land, not sure how high rifling is.  Probably a bit of cutting, tho it def. got better with tigher loads.  Still loads easy with 615/.020 combo if cleaning between.  Not as easy with swabbing inbetween.  (of note patch looks beautiful when no swab, I will also go down to .610 and try no swab for the heck of it.  Seems the larger guns dont need to be swabbed as much (talkin target here)

[Daryl]

My .58's and of course, the .69 don't need it.  I'll go as far as saying the .69 shoots best if shot 'dirty', not that it picks up and builds any fouling, as it doesn't.  It's accuracy is garuanteed if shot without wiping, and opens up considerably if wiped.

Try shooting a string with wiping and a string dirty, chronographing each shot. 

Wiping increased SD's dramatically, for me.  Perhaps it's difficult to make the bore exactly the same each shot when wiping, whereas shooting dirty with a snug combination, does exactly that - keeps it exactly the same, because it's cleaning as you wipe  -  the same each & every time.  Consistancy!  This is with a combination that can be shot all day, no matter what the humidity or temperature happens to be - all my rifles have loads such as this.

I think this topic should be split, and the loading, etc, run on the shooting forum.

[Daryl]

Further- perhaps it's getting less cut because the sharp edge of the top corners of the lands are being gradualy worn down a bit, not as sharp as before  along with the constant wiping, is wearing the crown slightly?

 Some guys use the red or green abrasive plastic 'sanding' sheets - can't remember their name and scrub the bore to 'soften' the edges. Others use steel wool scrub, 'Flitz' or 'JB' with new barrels for the same purpose, to remove the 'feather' edge. Flitz might help after a long time scrubbing, but JB would take a long time. Both put a nice polish in the bore, which can be overdone, due to removing too much of the internal resistance which is needed to get the powder burning properly.  "Slick" is the phrase mostly used. Roger's well aquainted with this girl.

[plastikosmd]

Fine to split, crown is perfect. Will just post the need for 620 in the for sale section, thx

[plastikosmd]

When I say less, we are talking over a short period. Rifle is like new. If I shoot a 600, then 605,610,615 the patch goes from blown apart and smoking shreds on the ground to burnt edge with small holes to just some holes to an occasional hole with some perfect ones. Groups also cont to tighten hence my need.

[Steve-In]

When one of the patches shredded you may have got leading in the bore.  It doesn't take much to tear patches.  My experience with Teflon is it  deteriorate as it gets older.  Almost like the material rotting. 
I know guys that have mounted scopes on their bench guns for load development.

[plastikosmd]

The scope issue is a good one. A 1.5" 6 shot open sight group has some degree of operator error, no doubt! I have been agging groups to get rid of some error. Good thought on the lead. That was early and only did it for first string. Once noted the rifle was cleaned and combo was changed. Every change has continued to improve patch and agg. My next plan is to do 610 w- out clean and .620 ( if I can find some) w .020 patch(Teflon is new) and .626 w a .020 if I can get it down (prob can if clean, 615 + .020 is easy, bit hard when dirty). If it is too tight I will use some .015 patch and see. Will report back

[Daryl]

I still don't understand how a ball that is bores size, ie: .600", then loaded with a .020" patch, can be shredding/burning the patches.

I don't have a big bench gun, never worked on one, but I've shot a lot of ML's and worked up loads for probably close to 50 or more barrels and guns.

In Taylor's .62" (the first one) we used a .615" ball in a .620" bore (.005" smaller than the bore) with a .020" patch and loaded up to 200gr. of powder, yet didn't get burned, cut or otherwise damaged patches.

Plastikosmd, you said the .615" loads quite easily - perhaps your bore is actually .62".  Most people would find a ball that is .015" LARGER than the bore a bit difficult to load with a .020" patch.  I wonder if this barrel is mismarked?

 It just doesn't make sense to me that a bore sized ball, ie: .600" + a .020" patch can shred/burn the patch in a .600" bore. roger is susing a .457" ball, with .015 teflon patches in a .450" bore and not getting shredding or burning. Something must be causing this phenominum.

Have you measured the bore yourself?  It does not sound that way.  Will the .605" ball sit on top of the muzzle or does it fall down the tube?

If this is one of the huge, used, bench guns, perhaps the bore is a bit rough (somewhere)? and is smoothing out now.  Would it be prudent to first try to polish the bore with Flitz or crocus cloth, or the red or green plastic - abrasive cloth I can never think of the name of?

[plastikosmd]

Bore is smooth, great to load. Box is marked 60, it is probably bigger than .600. Didn't measure, set came with a .600 mould tho I don't think it was ever used. The 45 marked box, came w a .451 mould and the first loads at that size were pretty good. Will let u know what it finally settles on

[Daryl]

Bore is smooth, great to load. Box is marked 60, it is probably bigger than .600. Didn't measure, set came with a .600 mould tho I don't think it was ever used. The 45 marked box, came w a .451 mould and the first loads at that size were pretty good. Will let u know what it finally settles on

It is great that it is smooth.

The exact size is necessary to make an infomred decision on what size to even start with.

As I noted above, the fact the .600" ball caused burning shows it must be smaller than the bore. 

I'm sure this is all really exciting for you, being new to muzzleloading as it sounds you are, but using undersized balls in a bench-rest barrel is a waste of time and powder, not to mention being most frustrating as well.  I would expact that using a ball that is Bore size, is the first step, then going larger in .005" increments from there is the best method.

Measuring the bore and groove diameter is a VERY easy thing to do - simple dial calipers will work, you will also need an oversized PURE slug of lead to pound into the bore, then extract and measure properly. You might also be able to measure the bore and groove without a slug of lead, but the measurement wil not be as perfect as if the slug is used.

To extract the pounded in slug of PURE lead, drill an undersized, hole, screw in a wood screw, then grab the wood screw with pliers, then use a hammer to tap on the handles to extract the slug. Measure to get exact bore and groove measurements. Screwing a large diameter, size 12, for example wood screw into the slug will expand the slug perfectly to match the bore (this is in addition to having to pound it into the bore to start). You want a perfect reversed impression of what the bore looks like to get an exact measurement.

[plastikosmd]

well instead of all the science, I went back to the range! ( I will slug it, just havin fun atm).  So I tried 610 with 020 without cleaning. Got about 5 shots into it and felt that it was loading harder than I was comfortable.  Not a lot of fouling, just hard loading.  First 3 were ok but then started to spread.  Patches were great tho.  I then started cleaning.  I think I was overcleaning in the end.  Between shots i was running 2 wet/2 dry patches between shots.  Even tho the teflon is slick, the patch was tearing rather than burning I have discovered.  Long barrel, tight load and dry lube was wearing the patch.  I switched to just a single wet wipe and go.  That seemed to work great.  Loads easy and the groups tightend to about 1".  Now to experiment with the powder load on the 610 and the last few 615 I have, may have to buy a few more off of the generous member here

[Daryl]

Some things must be learned by experimenting - experimenting involves trying different techniques to find something that works for you.
Well done.

To shoot well and consistantly without cleaning or wiping the bore, I've found my patches must be WET.

[Dan]

Slugging may require you pull the breech plug and may not be necessary.  Bore can be determined with pin gauges.  Your barrels are round as I recall, so the difference between the barrel OD and groove/land dims will tell you groove depth.  Pin gauges are available as sets from Brownell's and the rest can be figured with calipers.  If you have patience (as opposed to patients) you can turn a pin gauge from steel or brass rod in a drill press.

[plastikosmd]

well got both, patients and patience so I am set! Thank you (not round tho)
Hope to get out this week and experiment some, will keep u up to date

[Daryl]

good- looking forward to hearing how it's shooting. Large bore target guns, I find interesting.  My large bore hunting rifle merely thinks it's a target rifle.

[Dan]

Doc, went back and looked at your photos....slug the FM, or just measure it...one I saw looked round, if that's the right one.  Slugging a FM is the simple way.  Don't bend the pins....

[plastikosmd]

Will do that. Fm is round, I misunderstood. I shot .626 with a .015 Teflon patch, one wet in-between shots. Getting more consistent. 3 shot was under or at 1/2", 5 opened it up a bit vertical to just under 1". Iron sights, 100 yards. Don't know how much more I should expect, don't know what the experts group at? Patches were pristine, next will start messing w the load.
5 I shot today

[Greyfeather]

Is that grin still on your face after shooting that group? Hope so.
John

[Daryl]

Yeah - looks great - just like a group out of my .69.  I've only ever seen one other ML do that at 100 yards or 100 meters and it was a .50 I had, many years ago.

[plastikosmd]

Well good to hear, I am expecting more. Wil keep u up to date

[Dan]

Will do that. Fm is round, I misunderstood. I shot .626 with a .015 Teflon patch, one wet in-between shots. Getting more consistent. 3 shot was under or at 1/2", 5 opened it up a bit vertical to just under 1". Iron sights, 100 yards. Don't know how much more I should expect, don't know what the experts group at? Patches were pristine, next will start messing w the load.
5 I shot today

Some stuff don't need fixin'.  If you can run a string of 20 like that you'll run away from the competition in a couple of the NRC match scenarios.  For that matter, if you come close to a 20 shot string like that you'll take the trophy home. Some of those matches have time rules though...dunno how you're doing with that.