Question on steel to use for replacement screw in a hand vise.

[Artificer]

Folks, I just ran across a neat little hand vise that a good buddy gave me a few years ago.  It definitely is early 19th century and possibly 18th century.  The problem is the tightening screw and wing nut have long since been lost. 

I realize that many of these screws were made of iron and then just surface hardened in the 18th century.  I also realize the threads probably should be round on the ends and not sharp.  However, I don't have and don't know if it is possible to get taps and dies that form round end threads anymore.  Does anyone know if these are still being made?  (i do have two probably very early 19th century screw plates that are still correct for the late 18th century, but that doesn't do me much good without the taps and if I can't get good iron.)

I want to make the reproduction screw as close as possible to the original, so does anyone have a suggestion on the type steel I should use and what may be the closest thing available to round end screw point taps and dies? 

Thank You,
Gus

[Jay Close]

At one extreme of restoration you would make a custom tap of the required thread form and then use that to make a matching die and thread the nut. Next the die would be used to make the needed screw. The tap and die could be made from any reasonable high carbon steel. I use a lot of W1 for such specialized tools, hardened and tempered. The replacement nut and screw should be good quality wrought iron probably casehardened. Simple mild steel would be a modern substitute. Depending on the amount of use you might want to caseharden that too.

A bit less extreme restoration: British Standard Whitworth (BSW) threads have both rounded crest and roots, a bit more like the old thread forms. Finding ones coarse enough may be an issue but another avenue to pursue. Do you have a notion on the needed  OD and pitch of the missing screw?

I've recently been experimenting with chasing threads in wood by hand. That works fine for some applications. Old timers used the same technique in iron and non ferrous metals. That might be one approach to making a custom tap if you have a scroll chuck and a wood lathe you can slow down enough.

Hope this  helps.

[Artificer]

Jay,

Thank you for the reply. 

I don’t personally own a metal lathe, but have access to one owned by a very good friend.  I was hoping to not have to make a custom tap and die because even as this is a nice little hand vise, it is not worth quite that much effort.

I like your suggestion of using a BSW thread.  The OD of the screw would be about ¼”, though I really should measure it exactly and can’t lay my hands on it right now.  As to the coarseness of the thread pitch, I’m guessing it could run anywhere from 18 to 28 TPI.  Sounds like I need to check it and a few other hand vises I have and see what threads are in them for a better idea.  I will have to make the wing nut to match, so no worry about what size pitch for it.

Your suggestion of using W2 steel for specialized tools brought up something else I have been thinking about doing.  I am assembling an Artificer’s Kit (Military Armorer’s Kit) to use at reenactments.  I have a couple original screw thread plates that probably date to the early 19th century, but their form is still good for the last half of the 18th century.  I occasionally run into screws that folks bugger up and something like a screw plate would come in handy in the Artificer’s kit.  I realize I would either have to make one that included both American Standard and Metric threads to work on reproduction muskets and rifles, or make one for each type of thread.  Would W2 be a better steel to use for that over say O1? 

Thanks again and yes, your assistance is much appreciated.
Gus

[Dphariss]

I  made a screw for a hand vise from a hardware store bolt. It is about 2.5" jaw width and the original screw was shot but the wing nut was good. Don't know how old it is and would have to go measure the threads but they are about 3/8 coarse IIRC. Can't recall if I did the threads with a die or cut them on the lathe.

If I were making a screw plate I would consider air hardening steel and maybe an anti-scale to protect the threads. I suspect that mild steel casehardened and then annealed to 375 or or so would work but quenching in water or oil can warp things. And I would worry about dimensional changes.

Dan

[Jay Close]

My training  is in historical approaches to ironwork, so that colors my steel advise. O1, O2, W1 or W2 would all make a useful tap or die. I like W1 for a number of reasons.

First, it is similar to a quality late 18th c. steel---- not identical but similar. If something like this was used historically, I ought to be able to use it too.

Second, it forges easily by hand and is very forgiving as long as it is not over heated. It responds to various oil quenches, a brine quench or just a plain, old, slacktub water quench depending on the results needed. I have made everything from forging hammers  to drawknives to simple springs from it.

Third, it forge welds like a dream. This is critical when duplicating period style woodworking tools with high carbon steel laminated to wrought iron bodies.

Fourth, it is readily available in various sizes in most any industrial supply house as "water hardening drill rod".  Pretty inexpensive, too.

I don't belong to the O1 fanclub. It hates water which I use a lot around the fire and it is further away from a simple 18th c. material. I also use quite a bit of recycled file material which I've been told is 1095. Again, a simple carbon steel. In fact, I've seen gunsmith- made screwplates that were clearly fashioned from old files.

Dan rightly warns of warping and decarburization.. Quench gently. Sometimes warpage can be removed at the tempering temperature. You can minimize decarb' by using a carbon rich fuel, heating in a reducing part of the fire, heating quickly and not overheating.  As Dan suggests, casehardened mild steel would probably work. I'm pretty convinced that the period screwplates I've seen were either all steel or the working surfaces were. One I saw had plugs of steel welded into a wrought iron body for each opening in the plate.

If you are looking for British threading tools, try Tracy Tools in the UK. They seem to have everything and more. Do an internet search.

Just brainstorming: you can turn a bolt into a low grade tap by filing/grinding the end to a three or four sided taper. After casehardening with Kasenit, the corners of the taper act like rudimentary scrapers/cutters.

You've got  a lot on your plate. PM if I can help further.

Good luck!

[Artificer]

Dan,

Thank you for the reply.  Your use of a hardware store bolt was something I had thought about, but should have considered more.  A small carriage bolt would probably be just the ticket as the square portion would ride in the rectangular slot and the rounded head of the bolt would lay close to the body of the vise.  I was over thinking too much and thought to do it all on a lathe from round bar stock. I can file and make that look like a hand finished bolt.  My 84 year old Dad has kept a bucket of plain iron screws and nuts he got from my Grandfather years ago.  Maybe there is something in there I could use and not have to strip the chrome off a modern bolt.

I also appreciate the advise on the steel very much.  Thank you.

Gus

[Artificer]

Jay,

I very much envy you and others who have had training in historical approaches to ironwork.  I LOVE to watch guys like you work.  I could spend days upon days in the Geddy shop at Colonial Williamsburg trying to keep my mouth shut and just watching. I look forward to my eye healing up from surgery so I can get down there more often. 

I keep an ample supply of W1 drill rod in various diameters of 18” length rod to fashion pins when I need them for modern guns.  I am definitely going to keep in mind what you wrote about quenching it as I have had mixed results at times over the years.

After what you wrote about screw plates, I will have to dig mine out and examine them more closely.  You gave me inspiration on using old files for screw plates.  I have kept worn files for years figuring some day they may come in handy for something else.  I have made a few things from them, but not a whole lot.  I have at least one or more large mill file/s that are worn out that may be good for making screw plates. I will have to get them annealed to file them smooth and drill and tap them, but that sounds like something to make an Artificer’s tool kit more authentic. I guess I should leave some slight evidence of the teeth in it to make it appear authentic?  After I get it shaped and drilled and tapped, I will have to get it hardened and annealed.   

Just found and added Tracy Tools to my resource list. Thank you. 

Your suggestion to make a simple tap is appreciated.  I actually did that on an M1 Garand gas cylinder lock screw years ago to reform worn or buggered threads in gas cylinders before I was able to get the correct tap.  However, it gave me added inspiration.  I have been trying to figure out how to make at least some taps that would be correct for the 18th century to show people.  I have a copy of A Catalogue of Tools For Watch And Clock Makers John Wyke of Liverpool and have seen taps like that, but I could never find original taps like that except as a very expensive kit along with an original screw plate.  I guess I could make a few “close” reproductions from bolts to show people until I can find originals or more accurate reproductions. 

I’m going to keep your reply on file as I have never read such a good explanation of modern steels used to make period items.  While I do not have a forge, information like that will be useful to me for other projects. 

Thank you very much.
Gus

[welafong1]

 hi
 how about a thumb screw it might work. taking the chrome off i think i read some where you can use bleach. could you please post a picture of the hand vice
 just my two cents hope i helped you
Richard Westerfield

[flintriflesmith]

If you really want the screw threads to be period correct for the 18th century I believe they should be square threads like those on a regular vise. I just looked up the hand vises in a couple of period pattern books and they all have square threads.
Gary

[Artificer]

If you really want the screw threads to be period correct for the 18th century I believe they should be square threads like those on a regular vise. I just looked up the hand vises in a couple of period pattern books and they all have square threads.
Gary

Good info Gary, I didn't realize that.  Thank you.

I thought the threads were rounded as I was going off some original 18th century mainspring vises I saw at the Arms Faire at the World Championships in Wedgnock, UK while I was there in '96.  (I realize mainspring vise threads and hand vice threads are not necessarily going to be the same kind of threads.) 
One of them was a truly exceptionally nice mainspring vise that I would have loved to purchase.  Someone did a remarkable amount of decorative hand filing on that vise and it was just plain gorgeous.  I just did not have the 245 pound asking price (about $ 425.00 then) to purchase it and he could not take credit cards.

Gus

[Jay Close]

Gary, Gus:

I was thinking along the lines of the coarse, rounded threads that Lynton McKenzie illustrated for some gunlock tools several years ago in Muzzle Blasts. Probably similar to ones Gus saw.

Gary, your comment about early trade catalogs sent me to Wykes' book on watch and clockmakers tools and to Tools for the Trades and Crafts edited by Kenneth Roberts. We both know that those early trade catalog illustrations need a bit of interpretation as some of the depictions were conventionalized.

To my eye, what is in Wykes' is either variable (some threads square-ish, some V-shaped) or just ambiguous.
Roberts illustrates  square threads clearly on some hand vises, yet on the adjacent page are more hand vises  showing V-shaped threads..........again, to my eye.

All the hand vises I've actually seen are late 19thc. early 20thc. While they all have square threads,  I need more information before  making a judgement about earlier ones. I think the print sources show both. I can also see there being a size consideration: smaller diameters V-shaped, larger ones square.

This has got me curious, now. I'll have to ask around to see if anyone has  a hand vise we can be confident is 18thc. or early 19thc.

Have a happy and safe Fourth!

[Artificer]

In this link I posted on a thread about bag pliers, there is a close up of a very early hand vise and you can see the threads pretty well.  I'm not saying all threads would have been like this, but here is one example.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/fantastic-early-hand-vise-207228/

Gus

[flintriflesmith]

Gus,
I'd call that little tiny one in the picture you posted a pin vise. They don't get tightened as hard as a hand vise and the weaker V threads were often used. A numer of those in Wykes are also (in my opinion) pin vises for small work.

I was also looking at the Early American Industries Association reprint of an early 19th century pattern book from the Peabody Essex Museum library . It is titled A Pattern Book of Tools and Household Goods but the original company printing it is unknown. The ISBN 0-943196-04-3
Plates 40 and 42 there show square threads in the vise screws and V threads on the screws clampz for bench mounting the vises. Plate 64 does show 2 with V threads.

I believe the square "jack screw" threads were considered stronger and that they didn't wear out as quickly. Same reason they are used on vises today.
Gary
 

[Jay Close]

Gus, that's a beautiful little vise. My guess would be French or German. Not in the English "taste", I don't think.

Gary, I don't have that particular publication but dozens of other photocopies of similar plates and Robert's book. I'm glad that you too could see at least some with V-threads. And what you noted about "jack threads" is consistent with the notion that we might expect different thread forms on tools of differing size and expected use. Somewhere in the middle range of hand vises were those that might have V- threads or square threads??

We must be the lunatic fringe of history nuts. Discussing the minutia of 18thc. thread forms! Nerds, the lot of us!

[Dphariss]

 



The breech plug has a very round thread form, more so than the photo indicates. The drum not so much.
I like to get the plug out and look at the threads from time to time. Guess I could check the pitch and diameter. For some reason I don't remember ever doing this.

Dan

[Artificer]

We must be the lunatic fringe of history nuts. Discussing the minutia of 18thc. thread forms! Nerds, the lot of us!

Yes, I have to agree to a point.    But don't we do it on fine points of various guns as well?  More fun !!

Gus

[Artificer]

Oh, and for those who may have missed this in another thread...  In this link when you go down to the reply by "old-biker-uk,"  There is a photo of three pin vises and a a sort of flattened hand clamp.vise on the far right.  That hand clamp with the ring around it looks like ti came right out of Wyck's cataloug. 

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/fantastic-early-hand-vise-207228/