Author Topic: Have they blended together?  (Read 14360 times)

nosrettap1958

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Have they blended together?
« on: July 01, 2011, 03:52:32 PM »
I noticed something that I have a question with concerning some of the rifles listed on the Blog. Some of these rifles at first glance have all the characteristics and the beautiful lines of the Tennessee Mountain Rifle, mostly from the eastern part of Tennessee, but are now being called or labeled as Southern Mountain Rifles. Have these two schools blended together for the contemporary rifle maker and rifle enthusiasts or is there some distinction between these two, the Tennessee Mountain and the Southern Mountain that I’m missing?  
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 03:53:23 PM by crawdad »

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2011, 04:56:45 PM »
Quote
Some of these rifles at first glance have all the characteristics and the beautiful lines of the Tennessee Mountain Rifle, mostly from the eastern part of Tennessee, but are now being called or labeled as Southern Mountain Rifles. Have these two schools blended together for the contemporary rifle maker and rifle enthusiasts or is there some distinction between these two

I my opinion no the two schools have not merged. The east TN mountain rifle is just a sub-set of the Southern Mountain rifle. Southern Mountain rifles appear in VA, W VA, NC, GA, the mountains of SC and possibly other southern states.

The east TN rifles just happen to have unique features found in that area and there is/was a plentiful supply of rifles that have survived over the years.

I suspect the term Southern Mountain rifle is used to cover rifles produced in this huge area of the south. There certainly is a difference in the looks of a VA made mountain rifle and one made in Unico County TN. Just my thoughts, yours may differ.
Dennis
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 04:58:47 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline G-Man

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2011, 05:18:58 PM »
I think a lot of the confusion comes from some of the kit and stock/component descriptions in some of the vendor's catalogs.  As Dennis pointed out "southern mountain" is not a specific type or style of rifle.  Really, "Tennessee Mountain" is not either, as there are a number of different regional styles within the "Tennessee Mountain" area, although they do share some similar traits  from locale to locale.  And the components for any given style are not always based on what is correct, but rather what is available and fits.  So it results in a lot of misconceptions.

On the other hand, some vendors focus on a specific style and get it right - Dennis Glazener's Gillespie rifle sets are a good example - all the parts copied directly off originals of that particular style.  

In general, when you look at originals, my experience has been that those that fit completely inside a definitive set of parameters for what we associate with a given style are more the rarity, although they tend to be the first pieces that many collectors gravitate towards for many reasons and that is why those are the ones we usually see in books - i.e. they are identifiable and thus we tend to view them as the archetype for that style.  However, those pieces that exhibit mixed characteristics from several makers or areas are, in my experience,  more common and they are fun to study as they represent a bit of a puzzle and sometimes turn preconceived and accepted notions upside down.  I think we are just beginning to scratch the surface on understanding the spectrum of rifles made in the southern Applachians.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2011, 05:26:24 PM by G-Man »

Offline Cory Joe Stewart

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2011, 05:23:11 PM »
A good comparison would be how vague of a term Pennsylvania Longrifle is.  After much study we learn there are dozens of identifiable schools.  I suspect with further study these will yield the same diversity.

Coryjoe

Offline Clark Badgett

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2011, 03:59:31 AM »
Were there no Eastern Kentucky gunmakers? Wouldn't they be part of the Southern Mountain style?
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nosrettap1958

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2011, 04:12:32 AM »
Okay let's cut to the chase here, it's this beautiful piece of work that I am referring to;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/Sujr1pKlugI/AAAAAAAAS7o/LBkUsaMjPvA/s1600-h/DSCN7345_JG_AM.jpg

The slender graceful lines of this rifle looks a lot more like a Tennessee then a Southern, all its missing is the extened top tang to the comb and up and over it. Am I missing something here or am I flat out wrong?? All of your thoughts and extensive expertise would be greatly appreciated!!!  
« Last Edit: July 04, 2011, 04:15:25 AM by crawdad »

Offline okieboy

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2011, 05:45:04 AM »
 All Tennessee rifles are Southern, but not all Southern are from Tennessee. And as for the "missing" over the comb tang, a lot more Tennessee rifles were made without this feature than were made with it.
Okieboy

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2013, 03:42:34 AM »
Okay let's cut to the chase here, it's this beautiful piece of work that I am referring to;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/Sujr1pKlugI/AAAAAAAAS7o/LBkUsaMjPvA/s1600-h/DSCN7345_JG_AM.jpg

The slender graceful lines of this rifle looks a lot more like a Tennessee then a Southern, all its missing is the extened top tang to the comb and up and over it. Am I missing something here or am I flat out wrong?? All of your thoughts and extensive expertise would be greatly appreciated!!!  
I'm just a grasshopper,

but what throws me with that gun is the Germanic lock (reshaped plate) and triggers and the straight-sided (don't know the term yet), or nearly triangular shape of the forestock.

So to my learnin's I'd lean on calling that particular gun a SM rather than (East) TN.

Like to see more photos of that one. 
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Offline PPatch

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2013, 04:23:17 AM »
Rifle looks mighty Soddy Daisy to me, that stock and buttplate style - south-middle TN.

dp
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IKE

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2013, 04:53:22 PM »
I call mine   Iron Mounted Southern Guns.

Offline Curt Lyles

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2013, 06:42:54 PM »
Okay let's cut to the chase here, it's this beautiful piece of work that I am referring to;

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vb_Yo_ELC48/Sujr1pKlugI/AAAAAAAAS7o/LBkUsaMjPvA/s1600-h/DSCN7345_JG_AM.jpg

The slender graceful lines of this rifle looks a lot more like a Tennessee then a Southern, all its missing is the extened top tang to the comb and up and over it. Am I missing something here or am I flat out wrong?? All of your thoughts and extensive expertise would be greatly appreciated!!!  
[/qu
ote]
    Crawdad  That looks like a J.GETZ  /A.MARTIN squirrel gun to me and a dandy one at that. Curt

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #11 on: October 19, 2013, 10:24:40 PM »
My understanding is the same as Dennis, but I guess I don't help matters by making fantasy rifles that don't fit in an original school of rifle building.    I do, however,  clearly identify my rifles as such and explain where each of the distinct features came from. 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2013, 12:15:08 AM »
Rifle looks mighty Soddy Daisy to me, that stock and buttplate style - south-middle TN.

dp
No one in TN considers SoddyDaisy/Hamilton Co to be Middle.  Middle/East division is about the Cumberland Plateau (Grundy Co if on I24.)  Right exactly next to the "you'ins" line.   ;D

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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #13 on: October 22, 2013, 06:04:18 PM »
We consider the "Soddy/Daisy" area to be East Tennesse Mountain.  As was stated before- long tangs and curvy triggers don't make an East Tn Rifle.

I seen a bunch of upper East Tennessee Rifles that look a lot like SW VA rifles- a little brass here and there, pointed tang, but have these graceful simplicity of a Washington County gun.

I've also seen a rifle with almost the exact lines of the one linked above that was made by Pheosalus Bell of Polk County in the SE corner of the state.
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Offline WadePatton

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #14 on: October 22, 2013, 06:22:30 PM »
Yes.  I yet stumped to differentiate East and Middle-TN guns as I find very few certified Mid-TN examples, but always find the Bean-type stuff in pics, books, photos.  Folks make reference to Mid-TN, but i never get see pics.  Also, many (most actually) of the originals i've handled have been unknown makers-but general TN styling, so we (or at least me) can't tell what area they're from exactly.

Rooting around the site here I dug up some Nashville pistols and also a gun-making shop that was located about 5 miles from my house near the time of the great war (had contracts for military guns).  I'm going to look further into both.
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nosrettap1958

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2013, 08:57:26 PM »
It sure does Curt!!!! I'm not sure where in the heck I got that picture.

nosrettap1958

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2013, 09:14:08 PM »
Also, in reading and studying Bill Ivey's excellent book, "North Carolina Schools of Longrifles" you can see as the long rifle moved west through North Carolina, especially in the Catawba Valley 'Schools' and the Appalachian 'Schools' the comb is starting to get higher and more perpendicular to the wrist and taking on more and more of the traditional Tennessee lines. Can the same be said of the westward movement of the long rifle through Maryland or Virginia?  Can we say that the Tennessee rifle was born by the North Carolina Schools and developed from there?

Granted some of the Tennessee rifles are very distinct with its high comb rising almost perpendicular to the wrist and its crescent shaped butt plate and lollipop style barrel tang in some cases running along the top of the comb all the way back to the butt plate but can we also say that this rifle was first developed in North Carolina exclusively and not from the entire Appalachian Mountains or, more to the point, the Southern Mountain rifle?

Your thoughts?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 04:07:03 PM by crawdad »

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2013, 03:40:46 PM »
The picture sure looks like a gun that John and I started, but, was unfinished for  a year or more.   On one of his visits,
Allen took it along and finished it.   It was sold to Art Riser, and then showed up with a friend of ours in Lewisburg.  It had a
small swamped barrel in 28 cal., a modified small siler, and hardware from Myron Carlson.........Don

Vomitus

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2013, 10:07:00 AM »
   I have "Miss Penny" and I loves her! She is so slim and delicate and holds like a dream. I have a few others more fancy, but get many a compliment on this NW Tenn. mtn rifle. I think they are a breed of their own with some Virginian influence. Beautifully homespun.

JB2

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2013, 10:09:21 AM »
lol  LB.  I do believe I've lusted after your 'Miss Penny' a bit too, and have discussed her merits with her maker on more than one occasion.  Never anything off-color mind you, for she is a fine woman, no matter from where she hails or owes her heritage. ;)

nosrettap1958

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2013, 05:26:04 PM »
But why is she still sitting on G-Man's web site. LB, do you own her or just rent her? :D

Vomitus

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #21 on: November 18, 2013, 08:43:14 PM »
  I don't mind it sitting on G-Man's site. The real rifle sits at my place. ;D  
I wanna see. Got the link?  Ken built another that I have lusted for, long in the leg and nice cleavage.
 "Miss Penny" has some good natural patina on it now. Not abused,just used.The cheek has faded along with the forearm from shooting her...lots! I'm dreaming, a .45 B weight Rice,44", L Ketland,G-Man's triggers& hardware,ahh. I'd like Ken's link if anyone has it handy? Pm's good.

 Who is the "Moonpie guy"? name escapes me.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 09:23:33 PM by Leatherbelly »

nosrettap1958

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2013, 09:32:35 PM »
Ok, I get it. I thought that you had bought Ken Guy's "Miss Penny." My mistake. :-[

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2013, 09:59:58 PM »
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Who is the "Moonpie guy"? name escapes me.
I believe that was ol "Bookie" aka Steve Bookout http://toadhallrifleshop.com/
Dennis
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Vomitus

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Re: Have they blended together?
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2013, 10:14:26 PM »
Ok, I get it. I thought that you had bought Ken Guy's "Miss Penny." My mistake. :-[
Yes I do own/rent her. Bill of the forty fifth arranged the meeting.