Ian's Rifle

[Ken G]

Ian,
Is the rifle on Art Risers blogspot the one you had at Friendship?  Outstanding work! 
Ken

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/

[Roy S.]

Thats a fine gun. 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Thats a fine gun. 

Oh...Yeah!!     How early do you suppose a gun like that could have been made???

[Ian Pratt]

I have heard of rifles like this being made as early as October of last year, although some sources claim September. Personally I don't remember, It's all a blur
I am glad you guys like it, that is the one that was up in the gun makers hall Ken. I tried to sell it for a while but the trigger pull is on the short side for most people.

 We had sold my wife's .32 a while back and had never replaced it, she really liked this one so we decided to keep it.

  I didn't base this on any one particular gun, I'd  guess something like this might be 1820's

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Phew, ........Boy am I glad you got around to that date!!   I am interested in trying to pin down when (How early) the "typical Mountain rifle began to appear on the scene. Michael Briggs NC guns sort of look like the end of one period and your rifle looks like solidly in the new era.......but I know from nothing!

Thanks!!

[Ken G]

Tim,
That's a good question and one with a tricky answer.  What do you consider to be the "TypicalMountain Rifle"? 

Cheers,
Ken

[T.C.Albert]

I love iron mounted southern guns, and I love what Ian is doing with them for sure. They really capture the
look and feel that just looks and feels exactly right.

Ken, I am wondering if the "typical" iron mounted mountain rifle as we recognize it today actually couldnt really
start evolving much until the necessary mountain "iron bloomeries"started producing skelp and pig irons from local ore. Once the raw materials, especially iron, became local and plentiful, maybe then the artisans could begin using it to totally make their guns up from scratch and the new "mountain" school began evolving...

Seems like even the Pennsylvania rifle schools seemed to center around a good source of barrel iron and stock woods etc. Maybe a study of the time line and history of mountain iron making would give some good clues as to when such "mountain" rifles were likely to have started evolving?

Just a thought....something Ive been wondering about myself.
T.C.Albert

[T.C.Albert]

Ken, I was fussing with that last post, and its out of order now...

For me, the quintisential "mountain" rifle has got to be something akin to what we call a "Bean".

Long, hand forged and usually swamped barrel, commercial round tail lock, usually percussion, but not always. Pronounced grip rail on the iron trigger guard, long tang, minimal side plate and often just a washer or shaped piece of iron acting as one, iron butt plate, iron nose cap, formed sheet iron thimbles and entry pipe,, stock pinned to a generally full stock, but mountain half stocks do exist...(the McKee rifles for instance...) a single lock bolt, and the iron joined where needed with sweat copper. Patch box optional, grease hole common, and hand made iron set triggers held in place by the trigger guard, not a tang bolt.

Any of those traits can be omitted as necessity or habit required, or what the makers had for skill or materials, but when I think southern mountain rifle, those are the main traits I think of. I think in my opinion it all culminated and zienithed in Unicoi county in the mid 1800s. At least thats what I "thought" it was all building to, and there were many good and not so good examples made along the way. (I say "thought", because i really think Ian is picking up the ball and advancing the school now quite a bit...as did Woodburry, and its great to see. )


Anyway, thats what I think of when I think southern mountian rifle....
T.C.Albert

[Ken G]

I think the typical TN rifle, as you described, started showing up around 1815 - 1820 or so.   Before that I would speculate the guns looked more like those produced in the areas the gunsmith lived in before migrating.  Or that's my thoughts.  They certainly would not have set up shop and said "let's do this different"  I think it took some time for the styles to develop. 
I live in this area and one of the first things that you might notice is how isolated little mt. communities would have been before roads.  You will also notice how many city names have something to do with iron working.   Pigeon Forge for example. 
There is plenty of evidence that Smiths were in the area of upper E. TN prior to 1800.  Iron was also being produced in large quantities prior to 1800.  Maybe it's earlier than that.  The late Robin Hale reported he had locted 50 gunsmiths that could have or did produce guns in TN prior to 1800s.

 

[T.C.Albert]

Ken, I agree 100%. I also believe that the southern gun as we think of it started coming out of the mountains well after practising gun smiths had been there. I think even early on that alot of smiths in the bigger urban centers could make up a gun lock stock and barrel, but that they often used cast furnitures, stock blanks, and even barrel blanks made up in bulk by specialists in those branches of the trade.

But in the mountains no such sources were convienantly available unless you hauled them in piece by piece, so naturally they began perfecting the manufacture of guns entirely from scratch, often one man or a family working together to make it all from start to finish using the rawest of raw materials. Thats how I imagine it anyway, and by the early 1800s the mountains were settled enough to warrent such a need, yet isolated enough to give rise to what we see as the southern mountain style. And after a few generations of refinement we have that traditional style we see by the mid 18oos....by then, other gun making materials were more easily available, but the tradition was now "traditional" and the isolation, and perhaps even economics tended
to keep it that way.

Just my own thoughts about it anyhow...To me a mountain community that could dig, bloom, and smelt its own iron, then have its gun makers turn that into rifles it amazing, and thats partly why I think they are so neat...
T.C.Albet 

[jim m]

this is a great discussion and very infromative. and yes Ians work is really looking great

[Ken G]

"but the tradition was now "traditional" and the isolation, and perhaps even economics tended"

I think this explains why long barreled guns continued long after short barrels became the vogue.  Styles continued to look very similar for a long period of time.  barrels even got longer in the Soddy area.  Almost like they were following a different path of evolution that the rest of the country. 

Ken

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

See I knew someone could answer your question better than I could Ken. The Baxter Bean is I guess my benchmark.   So folks were living and repairing and building guns in WV, TN. KY and the Mtns of GA in some numbers beginning really in the 1780s and growing fast.  They brought guns from VA, PA etc with them.. so I figure sometime about the turn of the century new styles began to emerge. The iron was present in all these areas and we know the making of iron for a variety of uses wa pretty common by then if still small in scale. Thats why I asked my question...trying to deermine when the architecture begana to evolve to a revcognizable Mtn rfile.  was it as early as 1800?? 1810-20??

[Ken G]

Tim,
I stand by my thought that 1815 to 1820 would be the time when this architecture started to be common.  It could be earlier.  You could even convence me it was later.  It's just my opinion.  You can place gunsmiths in the area erlier but examples of their work hasn't surfaced so we are not sure what they looked like. 

I often wonder if our idea of the typical Mt. rifle would differ had the Union Army not confiscated and destroyed thousands of rifles. 

[halfmeasures]

I often wonder if our idea of the typical Mt. rifle would differ had the Union Army not confiscated and destroyed thousands of rifles. 

That's an excellent point.

[T.C.Albert]

Well...that is a great point, especially since most of Unicoi county was actually pro "Union" I think...
It would stand to reason that those guns might not have been confiscated....I think Ambrose Lawing
served in the Union, and he was a noted gun smith of the typical southern mountain style, in fact in my opinion, one of the best....
T.C.Albert

[ironwolf]

   Interesting. I recently handled an Ambrose Lawing That at first glance could have been made as early as 1820's or so.  Actually dated @ 1879 complete with a tin type of the maker with the gun.  About 6'4" long and maybe 25 lbs. Looked to be around .45 cal, 1 1/8" straight bbl. At first glance it looked to have about half a doz. thimbles

Kev
 

[Ken G]

25 lbs. Wow!  That sounds like a Soddy gun.  Some of them were real long and real heavy. 
That is a stricking contrast to the Lawing gun I saw at the KRA show in Norris.  It was best described as a 3/4 sized rifle. 

Cheers,
Ken

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Thanks Ken, That is about what I had thought but really don't know enough about mountain rifles to know.  Looking at some of the NC guns Mike Briggs posted pictures of  and then looking at pictures of the "typical" Mtn rifle and the guns in the Museum of the Appalachians I began to wonder........

[Carper]

Family members aside, Ambrose Lawing  rifles are my favorite. I have had three of them in the past. All were nice half stocks, but I have seen some rifles with his stamp on the barrel that I just cant believe he made. I once traveled a distance with the full intent of buying a walnut full stock " Loving" I am very particular about the triggerguard and what you would call "Bean style" is all that interest me. All the AL rifles that I had ever seen (about half dozen) had that. When I got there here was this rifle with a triggerguard that looked like a Dimick or sort of like a Thompson center for you modern types. I just could not think it was a AL rifle. I passed on it. Later I was looking at the picture of him in the Foxfire book with a magnifier and lo and behold the rilfe leaning in the picture had that style of guard, Take a look and see. His son made some rifles and the forestock went about half way to the muzzle and I never liked that look at all. Some of you guys are really making some nice southern rifles. I like the rifles that both Ian and Ken are making and challenge them to stay within that mold and master all the little things that make these rifles such a pleasure. We have been making southern rifles since  early 1800's up  until today and you guys make a better looking rifle than I do ! In my family the iron mounted rifle was considered second class. The Carpers( Korper) were master German blacksmiths and could according to my grandfather  could make objects about as fast as you could make them in clay. But when someone wanted to pay for a fancy gun it was mounted in silver or brass. I have a silver mounted squirrel rifle that they made up for some money person after the Civil War. I think it hard for us put ourselves in the level of poverty that these folks lived day to day. My folks used the rifles as a source of cash money and they were poor,poor and poor. I am sure that they bought most the casting that they used when they made up a fancy rifle old horseshoes were free! and time was worth nothing. Even more it you had 8 boys doing the farm work  so what if it took three hours to forge out some parts , better than paying 15 cents for them.    You  go broke pounding blue metal...                                Good luck                 Johnny Walker

[G-Man]

There were a number of known gunsmiths working in the mountains and trans mountain areas in the 18th century. I recall seeing a reference in one of the books to an exchange of a "locally made rifle" for a child who had been taken captive by Cherokees in the 1790s in the Unicoi County area.

Iron making seems to have really started to develop in the region in the 1790-early 1800s timeframe.  Just my opinion, but  I dont' think it just coincidence that that is also the period when you start to see iron mounts becoming popular.  There were some early smiths working farther west in the region - like Jacob Young, Conrad Humble, etc. who worked in brass, and many of the later smiths made mountain style rifles with brass mounts or mixed hardware.

Earl's Matthew Gillespie rifle shown in Dennis' book looks to be early - I believe he dates it some time around 1810 or thereabouts(?).  And the the form of the basic Gillespie style is there but just looks a little "beefier" to me on that gun.

The Joseph Bogle gun shown on AHS is another good example of an "early" mountain rifle.  He was in Tennessee by the 1790s and died in 1811.  The form looks more like something you would expect in Virginia, but you can see some evolution occurring in the patchbox and other mounts.
I have seen a number of similar guns from that same timeframe.

So the classic "Bean" style?  It doesn't look to be there before 1810, but certainly looks to have been there by about 1830.  So I think Ken's estimate is about as close as I could get it.  It is really hard to say on these mountain rifles - once the styles were there, they didn't change much for about 75 years.   That 1879 gun is a good example.

You really have to look at geography and settlement patterns to get a feel for the mountain rifle styles.  The geography influenced the migration routes and where people settled.  The beautiful guns that Mr. Briggs has shown recently were Piedmont guns, whereas the mountain rifles were from the more isolated regions in the western part of the state and share more in common with SW Virginia and Tennessee than guns made elsewhere in their own states.  I guess you'd have to call it "Southern Appalachian" style.   Many of the mountain areas  supported the Union in the Civil War.  I don't know how that was handled during reconstruction - if these areas were given more leniency with regard to keeping guns or not.

It does seem that a lot of the early originals were severely cut down later - often a foot or more - some say for horseback, but I think maybe also for fitting under the seat of a buggy perhaps?

Guy

[Warner]

Guy
Are you going to the CLA ? I'm to pickup my new Mike Miller .40cal.
and my House .54 cal. which needed to be freshened out.I am really looking foreward to it.
Also I want to show you an orginal Ft. Megis ax head that was found along the Whitewater this spring after the flood.
BTW I have a .40 cal Mike Brooks I need to unload if you know someone who is looking.
Hope to see you in Lex
Warner

[G-Man]

Hello Warner - good to hear from you!

I am going to be there on Friday - hope to spend a full, long day there for a change this year.  Hope to see you there - would love to see the pieces you referred to.

Guy

[C Wallingford]

Warner--
I would like to see the items as well. I will be there from Thurs night until it ends.

[don getz]

Well, time has finally arrived.   We're pulling out of the shop at about 6 tomorrow morning, rented one of those big vans
with five seats.   Will be removing the rear one to give us room for all the guns and "stuff".    Will be eight in the van,
plus all our wares.   We have to travel west to pick up Art DeCamp and Mark Wheland before we head south thru West
Virginia, long trip, but should make it to Lexington by 4.   Look forward to seeing you all there.....Don