Author Topic: Tempering gravers  (Read 6947 times)

DFHicks

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Tempering gravers
« on: July 02, 2011, 06:49:16 PM »
After trying my hand at putting together several very plain rifles 30+ years ago I am back at it following my retirement.  I have finished putting the parts on the stock blank and most of the wood shaping.  Now it's time for the patch box.  Before doing this I am trying to learn to do some simple engraving.  This is even harder than I expected _ at times it seems I have a reverse learning curve.  So far I haven't made a graver that really works and curls up a nice brass shaving as seen in the Brooks tape.  One thing I am having trouble with is drawing the hardened graver to a straw color.  The technique is relatively simple and straight forward however even with care I "run past" yellow to brown or worse.  Maybe it's just a matter of more practice.  I've even tried our kitchen oven but it does not stay at the same temperature but gets hotter than the setting to maintain an average of the dial setting.  This is fine for a cake but didn't work annealing gravers.  Are there science instrument-type small ovens that don't cost a huge amount available?
I welcome your advice realizing this might be just like the old joke about getting to Carnegie Hall _ practice, man, practice.
Thanks

Offline Metalshaper

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 07:19:28 PM »
what is your usual heat source?? I use a Mapp/propane torch.

from my blacksmithing experiences.. you need to get it out into some shaded sunlight.
as the Wadswarth poem goes" Under the spreading Chestnut tree, the village Smithy stands" ( well something like that?)

a basement workshop like mine SUCKS for tempering by eye!! and under fluorescent
lights doesn't help.

 I was taught to harden the pieces.. then polish the tip/edges where you want to observe the colors run.  take a low flame  and play it back from the tip about 1/2"+.. NO flame or heat at the tip!!  play the heat gently,, I like to fan the heat from this 1/2",  back towards the 'handle' a bit. Kind of a circle motion all the time watching the tip!!  it doesn't need constant flame on the graver's shank to get the heat flowing and it's not a race. eventually you'll see the color or colors running into the polished area.. Quench when your eye just begins to see the color you want.. don't wait to verify if it truly is.. just quench..  You should be there!!

Hope this helps?

Respect Always
Metalshaper/Jonathan

Offline KLMoors

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 07:20:40 PM »
I make my gravers out of 3/32" W-1 tool steel I get from Mcmasters. I comes annealed so it is easy to shape to the profile you want.

For tempering, I've tried a few methods and I have found that using the torch and going for the straw color works fine and is quicker than any oven method. I first turn the lights off in the shop so it is pretty dark. After heating to cherry red/orange and quenching in water, I clean the last 1/2 inch off with some 220 sandpaper so it is nice and bright. I hold it in the flame of my propane torch for just a few seconds about an inch and a half below the tip. Hold it away from the flame for 6 or 8 seconds. Then back in the flame for a few seconds, and hold it away from the flame again and so on.

You will see the straw color start to move towards the tip. I stop when it is about 1/4 inch from the tip and when I remove it from the flame it moves that last little bit on its own. It does take some practice, but I have found it works fine.

mjm46@bellsouth.net

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 07:36:42 PM »
I just buy my gravers already made. They are real cheap and will last forever, repeat FOREVER. Just a little stoning periodically when they dull or don't cut good. Why reinvent the wheel.

Birdhunter

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 09:10:29 PM »
I make mine from 1/8" cobalt steel lathe bits & sharpen on diamond stone to keep from ruining my Arkansas stones. The cobalt steel is tougher & stays sharp longer.
Curt

Offline Jay Close

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 09:19:15 PM »
If you temper a bit too hard and find the point of your chisel chipping, you can always go back and temper just a little bit softer.

If, on the other hand, you make it too soft, then you really ought to at least normalize (heat to critical temperature , air cool) and go through the whole process of hardening again.

Moral of this story: temper just a bit shy of what you think it ought to be and then try the tool. Adjust from there.

Also, any kitchenware store will have an oven thermometer. I always stick one in my kitchen oven if I'm using it for tempering so I can accurately track the oven heat.

As most folks have noted, a torch like a propane torch or Mapp gas torch really is the most controlled way to run those temper/oxide colors in a small shop. If you have access to a forge, another approach is to heat a heavy bar in the forge fire to a good orange.  Then take that bar from the fire and set it on some nonburnable surface and lay your chisel on the hot bar to temper.  Or just grab the chisel in tongs and hold it in the radiant heat of the bar. This approach can be slow and very controlled.

To reinforce a point others have made: heat for hardening in shadow, but you need good light and a polished, scale free surface to see the temper colors accurately. Also, once you've polished the scale off and you're ready to temper, keep your hands off the polished hardened steel. Oils from the fingers can influence the oxide colors that are your temperature guide.

Final bit of advise: temper as soon after hardening as possible.

Don't forget to have fun!

Offline kutter

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 11:27:11 PM »
If you really want to make graver(s) instead of purchasing a couple of common shapes, tempering of the tiny pieces is easily done with a cigarette lighter.

Hold the polished graver point outside the flame while heating  further up the tool and watch the color change run down to the tip is the safest way.
Quench in room temp water when the tool tip area is the right color to avoid it traveling past that point.
I use a regular lighter (not a 'gas' type) so it does deposit some soot on the tool, but the point area remains uncoated being outside the flame area and color change is easily seen.

The lighter makes it quite easy to do on small pieces. As a heat source, it doesn't overwelm the part and run the temp too high before you know it.

I use the same technique when lightly tempering new punches made for background matting & modeling work.

A coating of boric acid/alcohol mixed to a cream like consistancy and coated onto the tool will keep the metal from forming an oxide layer on the surface when the hardening is done.
Once coated onto your carefully shaped and polished graver, punch, chisel, etc, the alcohol quickly evaporates. A little help from the torch quickens the process leaving a hard but very brittle casing of boric acid surrounding the tool.
Do your  regular heat and quench with the material in place, the red/orange colors will show right along with & through it.
When quenched, the case of boric acid will dissintegrate and fall off leaving a perfectly bright clean surface ready for tempering.



When after alot of sharpenings of a tool tempered in that manner, you cut the tool face back to softer steel where the temper was drawn more. Now you'll have to reharden and temper again.
But unless you do this for a living,,that'll be a while.

I've noticed that background punches will work harden from use and will resist annealing if I want to reshape or sharpen the surface features.  I have to remove approx 1/4" from the end to get back to uneffected metal again and make a new punch surface altogether. 

Regular HS steel gravers are often sold at reasonable prices and will cut most anything on a M/Ldr.
Saves a lot of filing, grinding, shaping & heat treating,,more time for cutting.

Good luck and have fun with your project!
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:48:27 PM by kutter »

Offline Jay Close

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2011, 04:28:00 PM »
That boric acid trick is great! It's going in my notebook! I use boric acid on occasion mixed with borax to make a slightly gooey-er flux for forge welding. I have some containers of roach powder that are marked as 99.8% boric acid--that ought to do the trick! Thanks for sharing!

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2011, 06:33:20 PM »
One thing that I have run across that is good to be aware of for engraving brass.

Some alloys cut beautifully, and others are a miserable battle from start to finish.

So before you determine that your sharpening technique is bad, try your cutters on some different alloys.

Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

38_Cal

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2011, 12:07:01 AM »
When tempering small tools, I'll heat to red and quench, then polish back to about 400 grit.  I place the tool on a piece of steel, like a worn out 12" file, and apply the heat from underneath with a propane torch.  When I see the color get close to what I want, I pull the torch away and then remove the tool with pliers or tip it off onto a cool surface.

David

Offline kutter

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2011, 12:27:43 AM »
That boric acid trick is great! It's going in my notebook! I use boric acid on occasion mixed with borax to make a slightly gooey-er flux for forge welding. I have some containers of roach powder that are marked as 99.8% boric acid--that ought to do the trick! Thanks for sharing!

That insect powder will work fine.
Way back when I was shown the process, Boric Acid was purchased at the pharmacy in a small cardboard 'tin top' box. A little goes a long way when you just use it on small tools like this.
I mix it up in a small shallow jar that seals well, even a prescription medicine/pill container works well., But if it drys out between uses, just add some more alcohol to revive it again.

Offline Waksupi

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2011, 01:12:28 AM »
I dip a tool into either niter, or lead. Easy to see when you are coming up to color.
Ric Carter
Somers, Montana

Offline kutter

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2011, 05:06:10 AM »
I agree, some of the brass alloys are very difficult to get a clean cut on.

Some alloys don't cut well at all, they feel almost gritty and crumble in front of the point instead of cutting cleanly. It's a battle to keep an even line on some because of the alloy.
Cutting brass, copper, silver gold, etc ,,you can use a sharper face angle on the graver than you would normally use on steel. The strength of the steel cutting tool isn't needed and a sharper angle shears the softer alloys cleaner than a blunter one.

Try a graver lube on the alloys as the metal can be 'sticky' on the graver,,,brass, copper, silver, gold ect can rub off onto steel easily and build up on the sharpened edge giving a less than perfect cut.
There are specific lubes sold for the purpose through engraving supply houses but an all purpose lube is kerosene. Some say the sented lamp oil used in the decorative table and patio lanterns works well too.

I put a couple of drops into a cotton ball that is placed inside of softdrink bottle cap. You don't want anything more than a micro coating on the tip of the graver. Touch the graver into the cotton ball and go to work,,re-newing it occasionally as needed.

Also on brass, silver, etc, put a highly polished heel (and face)on the graver and don't be shy about polishing the heel into place with a gentle sweep to it instead of a flat.
That highly polished rounded heal will burnish the cut as it's made and will make for brilliant clean lines.

Making a flat graver is probably the easiest to shape out. With it you can use it as a flat or turn it up on one of it's points and use it as a V or square graver.  It cuts very nicely that way and you only have to shape one heel. Keep the sides parallel with the bottom so they don't drag in the cut.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2011, 05:14:41 AM »
Kitchen oven set to about 380 degrees. Use TWO oven thermometers.
They all cycle, the thermometer allows it to be set so it does not exceed the temp needed.
Or you need a new stove.
My wife's gas fired 15 or so year old Whirlpool works great. Let it warm to temp for about 15 minutes check the temp and put in the part. 375 leaves frizzens a very pale gold. Closer to 400 makes gravers. But I don't make square gravers 1/8" lathe tools are so cheap its pointless. I do make flats from O-1 and have a round I made from Piano wire.
Dan
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Offline fm tim

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Re: Tempering gravers
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2011, 08:29:27 PM »
Keith Casteel has an excellent DVD on engraving.  Along with excellent engraving instruction, he describes and demonstrated making, heat treating, finishing and sharpening gravers - made from old files.