Whats the best patch lube

[jeager58]

well in my opinion some powders foul more than others. so some lubes work better with some powders. I use Swiss powder exclusively and use mink oil for hunting. For target shooting I just moisten a patch  with water from a spray bottle and wipe between shots. you will get 100 different answers from 100 guys.  what ever works is the best for you.  When target shooting with a group of guys , ask to try their lube and see if you like it. Its better than buying 20 different kinds at 15.00 a pop. ....Phil

[Dphariss]

This is dependent on the situation.
For most shooting I prefer animal oils or tallow.
If at some place with silly range rules then spit is an option.

Dan

[Dphariss]

I would also add that WHERE you are shooting makes a difference as well.
In Montana in summer the humidity is so low and the temps high that even when blowing down the bore the fouling will cake unless wiped every few shots or a water based lube is used.

We have had a cool wet spring and everything is still wonderfully green. But within a week of the temperature coming up the ground starts to do this out where  I shoot.


The cracks are large enough and deep enough to lose things in. This was taken June 26, they are wider and deeper now. I took the photo because  I was surprised at how soon they appeared after the temperture came up.

Dan

[Macon Due]

Guys
I am new to black powder [at least was gone for 20 yrs.] but today I shot my .36 TVM 12 shots without wiping and with good accuracy [only 25 yds.] and the last shot loaded as easy as the first. I used Hoppes #9+ on a 22 thou. pillow ticking patch with a cast .350" pure lead ball and using Goex 2F powder [all I had]. I am really sold on the Hoppes and think I will try pre cut patches lubed with it next time.
Macon

[davec2]

Hey Daryl,

What brand of www do you use?

DaveC2

[stone knife]

Guys
I am new to black powder [at least was gone for 20 yrs.] but today I shot my .36 TVM 12 shots without wiping and with good accuracy [only 25 yds.] and the last shot loaded as easy as the first. I used Hoppes #9+ on a 22 thou. pillow ticking patch with a cast .350" pure lead ball and using Goex 2F powder [all I had]. I am really sold on the Hoppes and think I will try pre cut patches lubed with it next time.
Macon

Would using a liquid type lube in a hunting situation cause a misfire giving that the load may sit for a long time.

[Daryl]

Dave - I used my own brand yesterday - spit - but I do use a winter washer fluid with oil most of the time. It's handy and cheap - $4.00 per gallon. Hey, that's $2.00 per gallon cheaper than gasoline & 1 gallon lasts over a year of heavy shooting.

[davec2]

Daryl,

The reason I ask is that I am here in southern California...no one carries much in the way of WINTER window washer fluid.  I'm just trying to figure out if the normal stuff will work as well.  I am assuming that the winter type has alcohol in it.  If I knew a brand name, I could look it up.

Thanks

Dave C

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Dave, we just buy whatever a service station has on hand, but the brand that is under my bench right now is "Speedway International - Blue Thunder ...-35 C".  I use it on my water stones too.  It has a wetting agent that I think makes the difference.  I suspect that any windshield washer fluid will work.  But we use the -35 or -40 C stuff because we shoot all winter long, and it may help keep the lube from freezing solid.  If you use spit, for example, and place your wet patch on the muzzle, you'll punch the ball right through it when you start it, because the patch freezes instantly.

I shot my Hawken yesterday, and used spit for lube.  I shot 55 rounds using 84 - 125 grains of FFg GOEX, .613" pure lead balls, .018" ticking patches, and spit.  No wiping, easy loading, and fabulous accuracy.  I'm really getting to like that crazy Sam Hawken rear sight:  the one with the "split" aperture.

[Daryl]

Ahh- I see. The reason we started using it, was for a 'wet' lube in the winter that didn't freeze. Because it was cheap, handy and shot about the same as spit, I started using it in the summer as well.

As TOF has noted here, ordinary alcohol and water with some oil added would do the same.  I'd think the WWWF has methonal, not ethyl alcohol in it.  Here, the goverment hazard-tax on bottled or cans of alcohol makes it more expensive to purchase than the windshield washer fluid.

In the past, some guys have mixed up for their own use and even mixed and sold windex with some other additives as patch lube.  Not sure I'd do that, but who knows what's inside the WWWF?

I add the oil as it helps slow the evaporation of the solution in the patches on a hot day. I carry the lubed patches in small tins, like Sucrets or nickle or brass snuff or fire stiker boxes from Track.  I actually prefer the Track boxes as they don't rust,of course.

The gallon I'm surrently using, is called Blue Thunder -35, made by Speedway International. It is comprized of methyl alcohol - the only ingredient on the label that I saw. I assume the alcohol content is fairly high, as it says to keep it away from sparks or flame, etc.  Shot patches picked up from the ground are still damp, of course.

[Daryl]

HA! - I went downstairs to check the label on the bottle. Guess that's when Taylor posted.

[davec2]

Daryl, Taylor:

Thanks for both of your responses.  I will give it a try.  I don't get a chance to shoot much, but I did burn about 20 pounds of powder in three hours on Saturday.....  Took out my cannon and had a great time.  I will write a separate post as soon as I get the gun cleaned up and the pictures downloaded.

[stone knife]

Guys
I am new to black powder [at least was gone for 20 yrs.] but today I shot my .36 TVM 12 shots without wiping and with good accuracy [only 25 yds.] and the last shot loaded as easy as the first. I used Hoppes #9+ on a 22 thou. pillow ticking patch with a cast .350" pure lead ball and using Goex 2F powder [all I had]. I am really sold on the Hoppes and think I will try pre cut patches lubed with it next time.
Macon

Would using a liquid type lube in a hunting situation cause a misfire giving that the load may sit for a long time.

Anyone

[bgf]

Guys
I am new to black powder [at least was gone for 20 yrs.] but today I shot my .36 TVM 12 shots without wiping and with good accuracy [only 25 yds.] and the last shot loaded as easy as the first. I used Hoppes #9+ on a 22 thou. pillow ticking patch with a cast .350" pure lead ball and using Goex 2F powder [all I had]. I am really sold on the Hoppes and think I will try pre cut patches lubed with it next time.
Macon

Would using a liquid type lube in a hunting situation cause a misfire giving that the load may sit for a long time.

Anyone

Yes, a liquid lube will foul your powder and possibly rust the bore if you leave it in long enough.  I would think it could also dry out after a time and possibly catch on fire when shot.  Most if not all use oil or grease type lubes for hunting. 

[Daryl]

I concur that a water based lube not be used for hunting.  Some guys using oils, use a wad between the patched ball and the powder charge to prevent wetting the charge with oil.  I used to and still will, in my .69 however the other bore sizes I shoot lost accuracy when adding a wad. I haven't tested the .58's yet.

Water based lubes will rust the bore if used for hunting, just as bgf said they will.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Bear grease, Ballistol or Lehigh Valley if you are lucky enuf to still have some are what I like to use for hunting.

[FRJ]

In order for just shooting not hunting #1 Spit #2 windshield washer fluid, I use 10/20 brand.  For hunting loads that may stay in the gun a while I use crisco. Frank

[T*O*F]

The reason I ask is that I am here in southern California...no one carries much in the way of WINTER window washer fluid.  I'm just trying to figure out if the normal stuff will work as well.  I am assuming that the winter type has alcohol in it.

Dave,
It all has alcohol in it and the alcohol is the wetting agent as well.  However, it is also the drying agent.  The winter type must not freeze, but it also must evaporate quickly.  If used in the summer, it would evaporate too quickly, therefore a balance must be maintained depending on the temperature.

The alcohol is methanol because it is cheap.  Dump a can of HEET gas line deicer into a gallon of water.  If that ain't good enough, dump in another can.  You can buy cheap hydrometers used for testing anti-freeze to check the concentration.  It will give you the freezing point.  You may or may not remember that methanol was used as antifreeze before "permanent" antifreeze became available, but you had to drain it every year and you had to add a can of water pump lube, which was just a water soluble oil.

Methy, ethyl, butyl, propal, etc are all single alcohols.  Glycols are double alcohols, having an extra COOH molecue attached.  Theoretically, permanent antifreeze (ethylene glycol) would make a better patch lube because a.) it doesn't evaporate and b.) it already contains an anti-rust agent.

[Daryl]

AWas wondering, aren't most of the ethylene glycol's antrifreezes,  polyethylene glycol antrifreezes?  Not sure I want any poly's in there. 'Course, don't rightly know what's in the WWWF we already use, except for the small amount of oil I add.  I replenish the lube in steel patch-box every day.

As to evapouration, the WWWF lubed patches last the day's shooting event, no matter how many shots needed or fired, when at Rondy or locally. At Hefley, it can get up to around 100F.  A small squeeze bottle in the 'haversack' could replenish if needed.

When I shot mostly spit for lube, I had lots. Since I've stopped or slowed using spit, it seems I'm lacking. Supply and demand seems to have worked, as long as it was a stead demand.  The odd time I use spit now, I find by the end of the trail, I'm producing more and more.  When not using it I seem to have a 'dry' mouth.

These days, one need only open the box, hold it up to the sky and re-plenish the water content.  It's been nasty-wet this year.

[jamesthomas]

Shot my .32 this weekend put about 30 rounds through with bore butter as a patch lube, had a lot of gumming and fouling. I'm looking for a good all weather lube.

    The best all weather lube is mink oil by Track of the Wolf if your looking for commercially made stuff. I myself use a castor oil - beeswax mix. 8oz. castor oil, 1oz beeswax. with .20 pillow ticking ,50. Cal, .490 or .495 rb.

[Daryl]

Castor oil will work fine  - if - you have an excellent seal between the bore and the ball - I am talking virtuall no leakage.

The reason is this, when castor oil does burn, it produces a very brown, sticky varnish that hardens onto the surface. This will build up.  Anyone with small aeroplane experience knows THIS gumming form burn castor. It is a very nice oil and an incredible high pressure, high temperature lubricant - better temperature protection than the synthetics (that will mix with alcohol) - but - when it does burn, it leaves a a nasty varnish.

Now- have I used it as a patch lube- NO - the above is it's reaction to being used a high pressure, high temperature lubricant in an alcohol/nitro methane burning engine.

Alcohol soaking can remove this varnish.

For my .32- I use track's mink oil, or spit, or WWWF with Neetsfoot oil added - never any wiping for a day's shooting and never any fouling buildup, never any loss in accuracy all day.  I find it like all my other calibre rifles and smoothbore, no fouling buildup.

I've heard of bore butter gumming the groove corners and building up with loss of accuracy- after a number of shots.  One of the prominent cast bullet BR shooters over on cast bullet assoc. bought a .54 production rifle, smoothed it's crown and used a store bought patch loaded with wintergreen smelling lube.

 He found after 15 shots, his accuracy went South, until he scrubbed it with a solvent and dried, then his accuracy returned for another 12 to 15 shots.  He was not having trouble loading it as he was using a .530" ball and .020" patch in .004" deep rifling.  He is an experienced accuracy shooter and seemed to have a handle on exactly what was happening - he said the lube was building up in the groove corners and would not wipe out - it had to be disolved and scrubbed out with a brush.  I suggested it might be lip balm with a smelly oil added and he said that made sense.  I don't know.

I think anything with beeswax in it might be too hard as all-weather. Even castor oil becomes stiff - non-pouring in cold weather.  Of course, cold has varrying degrees of temperature depending on who's experiencing it.  I am referring to shooting in sub-freezing temps - normal most of the year, here, is seems.

[jamesthomas]

 Well I sure don't have to worry about sub-freezing temps down here in South Alabama, so I think I'm good to go. And you are saying that I don't have to worry about varnish shooting castor oil as a patch lube? right?

[catman]

Cold - Bear Grease

Warm - spit

Yes & Yes

Cold - Bear Grease for hunting
Warm - spit for target

[Daryl]

Well I sure don't have to worry about sub-freezing temps down here in South Alabama, so I think I'm good to go. And you are saying that I don't have to worry about varnish shooting castor oil as a patch lube? right?

Not sure on the varnish - I'd say no problem IF there is a perfect seal between patched ball and grooves.  I'm not sure how much compression that means - ie: ball size + 2x 'actual' patch thickness = X.  "X" must be "Y" thousanths LARGER than the groove diameter to create a seal that will keep pressurized gasses behind it.

I've picked up patches from loads that shot what I would call cleanly, patches that were reusable, - yet they had small narrow brown scorch marks around the perifery, almost invisible, but that showed there was leakage. This is the kind of leakage that could (?)/might/maybe create brown gummy residue from the Castor oil.  If it does, if will be most difficult to get out.

That brown gum residue is the residue that Harry and other's experienced with moose snot lube - in which the original formula had castor oil along with Murphy's OIl Soap. They blamed the Murphy's Oil Soap - perhaps they didn't use any castor oil in their mix. If their mix, I'd be blaming the castor just due to having experience with it in my model engines. I love it's lubing properties but not it's gumming properties.

It's all well and good to make statements about lubes such as I use X or hunting and Y for target "period". It works for me - but the statement tells us little (who like details), very little. 

It's great information - but -  how well does it work - do you shoot all day without having to wipe?

 Do you have to wipe between shots or do you only wipe because you want to, say, every 10 or 20, but don't really have to wipe?

 Does it load the same for the 20th as it does for the 1st?

 Those are the lubes I currently use - for hunting - an oil/grease and target, a water based lube allow all day shooting if you want, load the same - or easier for the 80th as they do for the 1st.

It is the combination that actually seals, not the lube. The lube assists the patching by allowing it to move and adjust into the corners without folding incorrectly.  This helps the patch to properly seal, it doesn't seal by itself. Without the lube, a fold across a land and groove could allow gasses to escape there, causing a burn-out or misdirected muzzle blast resulting in a thrown shot. Ever get fliers?

How many shots can you make with a hunting lube (oil or grease) before accuracy falls off or you cannot load another due to fouling buildup?

The say I see it - there is hunting, and there is hunting.

We go bunny hunting in the winter, squirrel hunting in the fall and winter, and moose, deer, bear, pig or elk hunting in the fall as well. Most use different rifles, smooth rifles or smoothbores.

The needs of these varies from having to fire many shots - without wiping or loss in accuracy - to only needing to shoot 1 or 2 - without wiping  yeah - I know - some of you like to wipe your bores between shots - I don't. I need a lube that allows me to shoot the way I want - top accuracy, no wiping.  It is a tall order - but not impossible as about all of us up here, use one that works.  Some use it for both target and hunting.

[Dphariss]

If Castor oil gums under pressure/heat then I would worry about the oil exposed to powder gases behind the ball. It is burned off no sweat, if it leaves a residue then their could be a problem.
From a practical stand point its very difficult to seal a bore with a patch. Especially if the rifling is deep and the grooves narrow.
While its possible to shoot very tight combinations, bore sized balls and a pretty heavy patch, its not practical for most shooting.

Dan