Author Topic: Nicholas Hawk? (Read 10677 times)

Fullstock longrifle · « **on:** July 11, 2011, 10:06:27 PM »

Since today was a slow antique gun day, I thought I would pass this on. Somebody has an interesting swivel breech Nicholas Hawk (at least it looks like a Hawk) on Ebay right now. Ebay will probably pull it once they find out about it, but it looks like a neat rifle. I have nothing to do with this gun, I just thought that somebody here would enjoy seeing it. By the way, can you spot the restoration work?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Kentucky-Rifle-Allentown-Pennsylvania-Longrifle-/180693754460?pt=Vintage_Hunting&hash=item2a122fe25c

FK

lexington1 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 11, 2011, 10:53:07 PM »

Very neat rifle! The only resto work I spot on it are that trigger guard possibly was broken and repaired at some point, and wood added at the bottom of the lock. Of coarse there is probably other work that is blatently obvious that I don't see. It seems that I'm always a victim of the saying 'if it was a snake it would have bitten you'.

JTR · « **Reply #2 on:** July 11, 2011, 11:01:38 PM »

Thanks Frank,
I would think maybe a Hawk restock at best. Or maybe made by his apprentice Roth with left over parts.
For one thing Hawk made his own back action lock and accompaning side plate for his swivel guns, and Roth seemed to use a standard comercial back action lock.

If it was all original Hawk, $8K would be a fine starting point, but wouldn't last long!

John

JTR · « **Reply #3 on:** July 11, 2011, 11:10:20 PM »

As for the restoration,,,,, maybe,,,, the stock from the mid trigger guard back....

John

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #4 on:** July 11, 2011, 11:24:37 PM »

Yes John, I agree, I had a Nicholas Hawk many years ago and this just doesn't quite look like Hawks architecture. Also, my rifle was signed, and if I'm not mistaken most of his rifles were signed.

As for the repair, I believe I see wood added to the stock under the lock. I can see a straight line in the wood (on the patchbox side) under the lock. If you look closely, you can also see that the curl in the wood at that point changes direction, that's another hint. You can see the curl change best in picture 4, and picture 1 shows the seam the best.

Opps I posted after your second post John, Hmm, you might be right, either the wood is replaced from mid guard back or forward, but either way, curly maple doesn't change direction like that!

FK

JTR · « **Reply #5 on:** July 12, 2011, 12:33:53 AM »

You're right Frank in that the architecture isn't quite right. Hawks guns are really pretty sleek and this one misses that sleekness by some.
The barrel tang and swivel works looks like his work, although he used a forward part of a lock for the frizzen and spring on his flint rifles and a similar piece on the percussion one I have. This gun just has the drum screwed into the barrel without the forward lock portion. And notice the brass piece between the barrels and how it butts right up to the swivel works on both sides. Hawks brass pieces fit the forward lock portion, so this gun never had those.
The star certainly could be a Hawk piece, as could the patchbox. If the pictures were better so you could get a sharp look at the engraving it'd be easy enough to tell. If the patchbox is a Hawk one, I think it would be one of his earlier ones from what I see.
I don't know, maybe a bit Hawk, maybe Roth, maybe both, certainly confused!
It'll be interesting to see if anyone bids on it,,,,,

John

Hurricane ( of Virginia) · « **Reply #6 on:** July 12, 2011, 05:23:16 AM »

All should be aware: "NO Return" Also "why won't it fire?

??" is not addressed.
hurricane

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #7 on:** July 12, 2011, 03:53:02 PM »

He probably added the "can not fire" comment because of Ebay rules, you can't sell a functioning gun there, other wise Ebay would pull it. The "no return" policy would bother me more, who would spent $9,500.00 on a pig in a poke with no ability to study it and return it if something was found to be wrong. One last thing about this seller is that all of his auctions are private, what does he have to hide? Anyhow, I don't think he will be selling it any time soon, at least not to me.

FK

mr. no gold · « **Reply #8 on:** July 12, 2011, 06:50:56 PM »

E-Bay now says that this item has been removed. Is that because it is a firearm, (by their definition) or because of the discussion here about this presumed Hawk rifle? We all know how ebay loaths objects of violence. But, don't they still sell blades, martial arts weapons and other items that can be instruments of mayhem?
The conjectures that this particular riflle was likely made by Roth seems the best fit for the gun. He just didn't have Hawk's finesse in his design. And, I have never seen a Hawk swivel gun with two ramrods, come to think of it. Anyone else?
Dick

spgordon · « **Reply #9 on:** July 12, 2011, 10:45:36 PM »

Very interesting that it was removed. I can't imagine it was because of the discussion here, though I would hope that anybody who read the discussion here would be wary of purchasing that particular rifle. I wonder if eBay's notification to the seller included a reason as to why the item was removed. Is it possible that the seller himself removed it? He had added something to the bottom of his description to the effect of: "if there is no interest in this rifle" (by which I assume he means if there were no bids) "I will end the auction a day early. No skin off my back."

Scott

JTR · « **Reply #10 on:** July 14, 2011, 09:43:13 AM »

Simply put, ebay doesn't allow the sale of guns, period.
Sometimes you see them listed, like this one, but they never stay listed for more than 24 hrs or so before the ebay prowlers find them and take them down.
Sometimes they even remove barrels and other parts that they think might shoot, or can be made to shoot. First class anti-gunners all the way!!!

John

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #11 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:22:17 AM »

Running an open auction site like EBay is fraught with a million legal problems given laws re selling of guns and tobacco and many other things,, Too much trouble to deal with....a very big downside risk.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #12 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:34:38 AM »

It is indeed a 'Caveat Emptor' situation for the buyer on these auction sites. However, Federal law is specific as to what constiutes 'firearm' and what is a legal antique. The auction provider is known for suppport and espousal of anti gun rhetoric and policy. Most state laws follow the federal definition and do not impede or encumber sales of antiques. Ebay's decision is internal policy and that is their right. My right is to neither buy through that venue nor encourge any
others to do shop there.
Dick

jdm · « **Reply #13 on:** July 15, 2011, 12:49:08 AM »

Even thou the item was removed it had the desired effect. People have seen it and will contact him directly to make a deal. It's a win situation for the seller . There is not much time for questions or comments from the public but time to sell to someone who may or may not be well informed. JIM

Ben Gorey · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2011, 02:56:24 AM »

Chas. Roth did not apprentice with Hawk. He learned the trade from his father who in turn learned in the shop of Freund in Firstenau. Roth opened his shop in Wilkes-Barre PA in 1840. J.E.Pugh researched Roth and published his bio in the Sept 1960 issue of Muzzle Blasts. I have a Roth swivel rifle, have seen others, and including an engraved sideXside percussion rifle. Excellent work.

Ben Gorey

mr. no gold · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2011, 05:11:41 AM »

Wonder how it came to be that Roth was able to almost perfectly copy Hawk's patchbox design? Roth's bio is interesting and a welcome addtion to the discussion, but there is that troublesome template.
Dick

Ben Gorey · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2011, 06:19:35 AM »

Roth opened his shop in 1840. Hawk died in 1844. Perhaps Roth. with his reletively new shop and desiring to appeal to the american gun market, was able to obtain shop items including patterns for "american" style rifle furniture from Hawk's estate. Gilbert PA is approx. 25 miles down the Gen. Sullivan trail (PA rt 115) from Wilkes-Barre PA. Roth was reported to be a very astute business man. He could capitalize on Hawk's success ?

Ben Gorey

mr. no gold · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2011, 07:51:24 PM »

Thanks Ben. Makes a lot of sense and explains Roth quite well. I had the opportunity to buy a very nice Roth swivel, or a J. Hillegas swivel many years ago. I chose the latter, but have since often wished that I had more money at the time, and I would have purchased both.
The Hillegas was a good choice, though, as it was later awarded an NRA silver medal at the Anaheim Annual Meetlng.
Dick

Ben Gorey · « **Reply #18 on:** July 20, 2011, 05:04:07 AM »

Mr No Gold: If you wish, I can send you a copy of Roth's bio. The author was a local newspaper editor who was interested in ml guns.

Ben

mr. no gold · « **Reply #19 on:** July 20, 2011, 06:41:51 PM »

Ben, a biography of Roth would be greatly appreciated. Another thought would be to add it to the Forum Library where the Schrekengost, Neihard and others can be found. There have to be some folks here who have Roth rifles and would like to know more about him. And, by the way, isn't his work somewhat rare? I have seen no more than two or thee of his pieces over the years: all swivel guns. But then, I live out west where representation by the various makers is inconsistent, at best. Thanks Ben!
Dick

Ben Gorey · « **Reply #20 on:** July 22, 2011, 05:31:47 AM »

Dick, Over the years I have seen swivels, single barrel half-stock, and an engraved sXs double rifle. All percussion. My swivel is rifled and smooth. The author of the bio had a half-stock percussion rifle which he donated to the Wilkes-Barre Historical Society in the 1960's. I don't know if they still have it.
I will send Fred Garner a copy of the bio for the library. Also, I will send him a list, I compiled, of contemporary makers featured in Muzzle Blasts from 1950 to 1999.

Ben

mr. no gold · « **Reply #21 on:** July 22, 2011, 07:10:52 AM »

What great information!!! Thank you, Ben. Will be eagerly waiting for it.
Dick

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Author Topic: Nicholas Hawk? (Read 10677 times)

Ben Gorey

Ben Gorey

Ben Gorey

Ben Gorey