Replacing a frizzen...

[SCLoyalist]

I'm trying to replace the frizzen on a Chambers lock and need advice before proceeding further.   The replacement frizzen was obtained from Track, and had a casting sprue on the face of the frizzen which I filed off (i.e. the frizzen was 'as cast' and relatively soft).  I heated it red  hot using a MAP torch and a Propane torch together and quenched it it transmission fluid.  After it cooled I washed it off in alcohol, tried to score the frizzen face with a file (couldn't),  heated it again trying to get the face to a straw/bronze color and quenched it again.   I'm not getting any sparks off it.  A file still won't grab, but the flint is roughing up the face more than I think it should.    I'm assuming the frizzen is of suitable steel and carbon content that it doesn't need Kasenite treatment. 

Any suggestions as to what I should do differently on the next try?     Thanks, SCL

[Howard]

Try water quenching. Bring it up to a bright red & throw it in water.  This should get you at 55 rockwell hardness.

[curly]

Ask Jim Chambers for some help.

[Jim Chambers]

Yes, go ahead and quench it in water.  It will probably break in half, and we can sell you another frizzen.  Again and again and again, DO NOT QUENCH OUR FRIZZENS IN WATER, THEY WILL PROBABLY BREAK.  I doubt you were able to get the frizzen hot enough with the torch you were using.  We use an oxy-acetylene torch to harden our frizzens.  We heat them to a very bright red (virtually orange) color and quench them in OIL.  Room temp transmission fluid works ok if you don't have quenching oil.  After cooling we temper them at 375 to 400 degrees for an hour.

[SCLoyalist]

I'll give it another try  tomorrow and shoot for more heat.    Thanks.  SCL

[Glenn]

Thanks for the procedure Jim.  Very good information to have. 

[billd]

There is water, air, and oil hardening steel.  All are designed to be quenched in a their specific medium.  Only Jim knows what alloy he uses, listen to him.   

[Dphariss]

I would lightly belt sand or grind the face.
You may have burnt some carbon from the surface in heating.
I generally use a little kasenite on the face.
I would mix some Marvels Mystery oil with the ATF or even Diesel 10% maybe. Thinner or even warmer oil quenches better than cold/thick oil. ATF is basically SAE10 motor oil though increasingly its synthetic.
If a Chambers frizzen does not spark you have done something wrong. Failure to draw it back can make to too hard to spark well. If you polish it well before drawing it back it will likely take on a nice pale gold color at 375-380.
I have a cracked engraved L&R frizzen to remind me not to crack frizzens.
Dan

[William Worth]

Is it kosher to use used motor oil for quench?

[Harnic]

After cooling we temper them at 375 to 400 degrees for an hour.

Jim, do you recommend quenching after the temper, or air cooling?

[Dphariss]

Is it kosher to use used motor oil for quench?

If you can afford decent gun parts buy some cheap SAE10 or ATF at Wally World it does not go bad, can be used for years and is less toxic than used motor oil.

Dan

[Rootsy]

When I'm in the shop at home and trying to temper a part I just toss them in the kitchen oven I use for powder coating.  Stick a K type thermocouple in there to measure temperatures and set the timer depending upon what I'm tempering and trying to achieve.  Regular cooking oven temperature control sucks... It will vary as it cycles and never trust the dial setting so don't be too over anal.  Works good enough for what I am doing in the home shop though, generally.

[LRB]

  Jim's frizzens are 1095. Warmed canola oil is about as close as you can get to commercial quench oil for it. Using a separate oven thermometer, bake it for an hour at 375° to temper. No need to quench after temper. Just let it air cool.

[William Worth]

Soooo...in summary here ( I don't have oxy-acetylene) could I use a bellows drafted wood charcoal fire to heat the frizzen (suspended with a piece of wire, just buried in the coals), hold that heat for a couple of minutes (orange-red) then plunge it into oil (swirl it about in the oil) then oven temper?

Sound right?

[SCLoyalist]

Soooo...in summary here ( I don't have oxy-acetylene) could I use a bellows drafted wood charcoal fire to heat the frizzen (suspended with a piece of wire, just buried in the coals), hold that heat for a couple of minutes (orange-red) then plunge it into oil (swirl it about in the oil) then oven temper?

Sound right?

A couple of years ago I did an L&R frizzen by a charcoal fire in a brazier, with forced air from a well muffled leaf blower.  I was successful in getting a sparking frizzen,  but didn't use oil for the quench and consequently had the frizzen fracture after a few hundred shots.    Since the MAP torch apparently  isn't enough to get  the job done on this Chambers frizzen, my next attempt will be with another charcoal fire, but it's gonna have to wait until the rain clears out.

[LRB]

 Sounds right enough William, but you must temper very soon after. Immediately after reaching room temp, or when you can hold it with bare hands would be good. Have your kitchen oven pre-heated to 375° by  an oven thermometer,  waiting on you. The reason I suggested canola oil, is that 1095 requires a fast cooling quench in order to reach max hardness. Only a brine quench will get it to max, but you would risk a break. Testing has shown canola oil to be almost as fast as the recommended commercial quench oil, and will get you close enough. Warm the oil to 130° if you can. Do not get the frizzen hotter than red-orange. You might be surprised how fast it could heat up.

[bob in the woods]

I am wondering about brine with canola on top ? Would that be better ?   I fellow I know refused to use anything but water to quench, and he always used kasenit, and..yes- he had a lot of cracked frizzens.
Someone told me that oil on top of the water would help. [ You'd think he'd lose customers, but folks keep bringing their guns to him cause his frizzens do spark really really well....when they don't break !!

[LRB]

  Yes, the oil and water is used by some. I have never tried it, and honestly don't know how well it works, or does'nt. Parks #50 oil is used with widespead success, but most home craftsmen are reluctant to pay out over a  hundred dollars for quench oil, unless they will use it on a regular basis. I have had good luck with warmed brine in quenching fire strikers, but am not brave enough to try a frizzen in it. I quenched a soft L&R frizzen in my Parks AAA oil recently, and it came out sparking very well, and the owner decided to not temper it. So far, so good, but I do worry that it may yet break.  I would have used canola oil, but we did not have any, and thinking that the AAA might be better than ATF, we gave it a try.

[SCLoyalist]

Okay,  Success, or at least limited success.  


Using the info provided by Jim Chambers earlier, I decided that proper heat was the likely problem.  Since I don't have an Oxy-Acetylene torch, I elected to try an air blown charcoal fire.   For the first try, I loaded up a charcoal brazier with Kingsford briquettes and put an air flow on it, quenched in ATF, and immediately put it in the kitchen oven which had been preheated to 375 and left it in there for an hour, then let cool slowly for a couple of more hours.   Lessons learned : it still didn't spark,  Kingsford briquettes probably ain't what you need to use, and the wife can easily detect the lingering odor of hot ATF coming from her oven.

Second attempt:  I made about a gallon and a half of charcoal from pine scraps.    Loaded up the brazier, same forced air, could tell the frizzen was glowing red.  Quenched as before,  heated at 375 in oven and allowed to air cool as before,  took guff from the wife about the smell as before.   This one sparks.    Touched off a priming charge in  the pan 10 times straight (although it did take 5 or so hammer falls plus a little wire brushing before it started sparking).  Lessons learned: Pine charcoal doesn't last long - lotta heat for short time; probably should have had twice as much;  and Wifey doesn't get used to the smell of hot ATF fluid over time.

Next week will take it to the range and try to get a feel for flint life,  if frizzen is getting gouged, etc.   So far, looks pretty good.  At the worst, it's my best failure to date.

Thanks for all the advice and assistance.

SCL

[Dphariss]

Okay,  Success, or at least limited success.  


Using the info provided by Jim Chambers earlier, I decided that proper heat was the likely problem.  Since I don't have an Oxy-Acetylene torch, I elected to try an air blown charcoal fire.   For the first try, I loaded up a charcoal brazier with Kingsford briquettes and put an air flow on it, quenched in ATF, and immediately put it in the kitchen oven which had been preheated to 375 and left it in there for an hour, then let cool slowly for a couple of more hours.   Lessons learned : it still didn't spark,  Kingsford briquettes probably ain't what you need to use, and the wife can easily detect the lingering odor of hot ATF coming from her oven.

Second attempt:  I made about a gallon and a half of charcoal from pine scraps.    Loaded up the brazier, same forced air, could tell the frizzen was glowing red.  Quenched as before,  heated at 375 in oven and allowed to air cool as before,  took guff from the wife about the smell as before.   This one sparks.    Touched off a priming charge in  the pan 10 times straight (although it did take 5 or so hammer falls plus a little wire brushing before it started sparking).  Lessons learned: Pine charcoal doesn't last long - lotta heat for short time; probably should have had twice as much;  and Wifey doesn't get used to the smell of hot ATF fluid over time.

Next week will take it to the range and try to get a feel for flint life,  if frizzen is getting gouged, etc.   So far, looks pretty good.  At the worst, it's my best failure to date.

Thanks for all the advice and assistance.

SCL

Totally cleaning the frizzen of all oil will eliminate the smell in the kitchen.
Starting fluid from the auto parts store should work. Brake parts cleaner is another good option. Both dry either  instantly or within seconds.

Dan

[SCLoyalist]

On the last try, I poured a bit of rubbing alcohol to try to address the smell, but maybe didn't use enough or maybe should have used something else, like starting fluid.   Live and learn, I guess.  SCL

[hammer]

Some years ago I also tried the advice as given in this post.  Didn't get good results at all, in spite of buying an oven thermometer as well.   Came to the conclusion that one man's red colour is not always another man's red colour.  And there are just too many variations for the real amateur who may only ever do this once. 
What did work for me was a MAP torch and a home-made small contained hearth and heating to bright orange with the face coated with Kasenite to protect against carbon loss.  Then quenched in light oil.   Place face down on a vice and heat the tail till blue tracks down to just past the pivot hole then spray copious amounts of water from a hand sprayer to quickly cool it down.   The heat that has travelled to the face seems just enough to stop it being too hard.

Still sparking every time.

Peter.