Anyone in the CLA want to lend a hand with some research I'm trying to do?

[J1776]

I'm wondering if perhaps a few CLA members may be able to lend a hand on a quest for knowledge?

I've been reviewing and studying a particular 1710 club butt fowler in a book.  A design which appealed to me. 
In addition, I found that the artist Todd Bitler recreated it last year and it was auctioned off at last year's CLA auction.

Unfortunately, Todd's very busy and impossible to get on the phone (which is understandable)....email was the only means to contact him thus far.

I had begun to seek another avenue to obtain the info I'm after to ask around to see who the winning bidder was at the CLA auction who won Todd's gun,.... but either no one seems to know, or no one has stepped up as of yet?

This is the key reason for me posting this,...anyone know who the winning bidder was?  How I may contact he or she?  Just need a few questions ansered, nothing more.

Every day I look at both the original photographed in the book, and Todd's recreation in photos, just to make myself good and familiar with them. Kind of drill everything into my head and memory before I go to work on anything. Of course I'm still looking for an appropriate barrel and "should" be picking up the stock blank next week "if" all goes well.

Simply put, I'm doing some personal research on club butt fowlers and I'd like to either see the gun personally (depending on where it currently now resides?) or at the very least (which is what I need) get some specs from it for my own knowledge?  Just some barrel specs and butt stock specs.

Well, I thank you for any help that may arise from this as it is very much appreciated.

I figured,.. hey, it's worth a shot to ask anyway???

[J1776]

Wow,.. nobody???    Darn...

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Continuing the same strategy when it fails to work usually doesn't lead to success. 
I don't know why no one has responded...maybe like me they don't have any of the information you are asking for?  Or maybe there is something about your request that doesn't help to elicit the specific response you are after. 

No one is obligated to let you handle the original of the recent reproduction......  maybe they have some reason for keeping it all private...their right if they want to.

What specific measures are you missing?  Is there no feasible way to derive them from the photos you have??

[Ken G]

I'm a CLA member and I believe I was there when it was auctioned off.  I don't have a clue who won it. 
Ken

[J1776]

Continuing the same strategy when it fails to work usually doesn't lead to success.  
I don't know why no one has responded...maybe like me they don't have any of the information you are asking for?  Or maybe there is something about your request that doesn't help to elicit the specific response you are after.  

No one is obligated to let you handle the original of the recent reproduction......  maybe they have some reason for keeping it all private...their right if they want to.

What specific measures are you missing?  Is there no feasible way to derive them from the photos you have??

Nor would I ever assume that anyone is "obligated" to let me handle the original or recent reproduction??  

I am just simply seeking in my research, the best avenues to obtain the needed information and so forth, doing the best I can with what I have to work with.  
Though, I'm certainly open to any suggestions you may have, if you have any regarding a better way or possibly a more successful approach?  
Anything's possible.

As far as deriving measurements from photos, I can only make vague assumptions based on lifeless photos when enlarged.  Of course I'll do what I can with what I'll have in the end, but for now there's no reason to not ask questions and venture out on a limb to see where the original is these days or the piece that was auctioned off, so as to aid in giving myself a more stable foundational jumping-off point as it were to go from....if possible.

The major details I'm seeking are that of the barrel's dimensions,...swamped or not (if so at what area)?...etc.
Also the dimensions of the butt stock,...the rest is much more feasible for me personally to make an educated guess at.

The possibility of seeing the original, for me, is more so important in regards to being able to visually study the architecture of the article within its historical context of an early 18th century fowler.  Photos are well and good, and are helpful of course, but we know they just don't compare to holding the real thing in your hands, if and when possible.  That's all....

[J1776]

I'm a CLA member and I believe I was there when it was auctioned off.  I don't have a clue who won it. 
Ken

No problem Ken...haha... 

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

JShip,

Other than the request you made to everyone and the books that are available, I can think of no suggestions that I think will be of any help. If I did I would certainly share them with you. I have had to work from photos and understand the problem, but often that is the only choice.

I have spent several frustrating months searching for info on a project a few years ago, so I empathize with your frustration..... Just trying to share with you the resolution I came to..... and then I got lucky and by chance ran into someone who had what I was looking for.

Building guns is too much fun 

Good luck and keep asking questions I and everyone else here will offer any help we can.

[T.C.Albert]

JSHIP...there were write ups about the fowler in question in both Muzzleloader and Muzzle Blasts magazines just prior to last years auction...
( back issues of both should still be available) along with many good color photos on web sites like the Contemporary Makers Blog..have you been able to investigat these avenues to get some of the details you are after?

Other than that, I believe the barrel was a one off made by Todd if I recall correctly, and you would probably need to have him make another for you to get anything close unless you plan to forge it etc... Also, Im not sure that Todd's gun was a bench copy of an original, but rather inspired by an original...again, I think those details are in the above mentioned articles..
TC

[Bill of the 45th]

Here's the one on Todd's site

http://www.longrifle.ws/auction/

Here's another full pic, click on image to enlarge
.
http://www.nativeworkshop.com/clubbuttfowler.htm

Hope this helps some.

Bill

[rich pierce]

Thanks for those links Bill.  Many a gun has been built on less detailed information than that!

[J1776]

I believe the barrel was a one off made by Todd if I recall correctly, and you would probably need to have him make another for you to get anything close unless you plan to forge it etc... Also, Im not sure that Todd's gun was a bench copy of an original, but rather inspired by an original...again, I think those details are in the above mentioned articles..
TC

Actually Todd mention's on his site it was made by Ed Rayl,... the rifle wasn't an "exact" copy, mine wasn't going to be either,...more so, a close resemblance, much like Todd's take I'm sure.

Thank you for the info on Muzzleloader and Muzzle blasts..I actually saw them online.  same stuff I already knew basically... thank you anyway though,.. much appreciated!!

[J1776]

Here's the one on Todd's site

http://www.longrifle.ws/auction/

Here's another full pic, click on image to enlarge
.
http://www.nativeworkshop.com/clubbuttfowler.htm

Hope this helps some.

Bill

Thanks Bill,.. found those, but hey, I still appreciate the help!

[J1776]

Thanks for those links Bill.  Many a gun has been built on less detailed information than that!

...and shall be yet again!  haha... 

[J1776]

Right now I'm focusing my efforts in determining a close idea of the details of the barrel used in the original in order to have one made.

So far, this is what I have,...

- I'm 99.99% sure it was a swamped early smooth bore barrel.  Todd had emailed me a while ago and said, "any gun of note was swamped"....so I'm assuming that one was swamped.
(**Anyone have a good reference to early "swamped" smooth bore barrels as far as the common area that most were generally swamped at?  I know the book, Recreating The Long Rifle by Shumway has a small mention regarding barrel differences through the years, but I haven't found much more on that topic just yet. ***)

- Barrel was .69 caliber smooth bore.
- Barrel had a brass rib running along the top of itself (though I may opt to not ad this to mine...not sure yet)
- Barrel measured 50"

Not sure on breech or muzzle size yet. I've done some research on similar guns of the era,.. a few Dutch guns of the era that interest me as well.  May just use a size from one of those for the breech and muzzle sizes perhaps?  Only issue is that I recall both were of larger calibers! 

[Telgan]

If Ed Rayl made the barrel, call Ed and see if he will give you some of the measuremnt details. Certainly worth a try. Just tell him what you are working on. I'm sure he could get you pretty close.

[Kermit]

Where's Captchee on this one? He recently built himself such a piece. You might ask him for some info through a PM.

[J1776]

If Ed Rayl made the barrel, call Ed and see if he will give you some of the measuremnt details. Certainly worth a try. Just tell him what you are working on. I'm sure he could get you pretty close.

Talked with Ed the day I read that the barrel was made by him.  Ed does SO many barrels he just simply doesn't recall the barrel's info.
Thanks though.
Maybe if he saw a photo of the gun might ring a bell?  Anything's possible I suppose?

[J1776]

Where's Captchee on this one? He recently built himself such a piece. You might ask him for some info through a PM.

Hmmm,... interesting!!...promising! 

[Curt Lyles]

JS  Todd made the barrel on the CLA club butt not Ed Rayl .  Curt

[M Tornichio]

Curt beat me to it. Todd made the barrel. I have seen the lathe that was used to make it. I had a couple of barrels breached on it. I could be wrong, but the guy who ownes the lathe has some barrels that were all round swamped and approximately 50" long. This was at the beginning of the year. They could be long gone by now. I don't want to put his name on here, without asking his permission though.
 
I don't offer this info as gossip, just to let you know that Ed did not make the barrel.

regards,
Marc