Author Topic: Question for the blacksmiths on here  (Read 8033 times)

eagle24

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Question for the blacksmiths on here
« on: July 19, 2011, 04:32:59 PM »
I'm getting ready to braze a butt plate in my forge (brass).  I found that brass melts around 1700 ºF.  What are the rough temps when mild steel is at:

Red
Orange
Yellow
Pale Yellow (near welding heat)

eagle24

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2011, 06:07:25 PM »
Nevermind, found this for those interested.
http://www.muggyweld.com/color.html

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2011, 06:29:12 PM »
For sure, it needs to be orange to braze.
Andover, Vermont

camerl2009

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2011, 09:15:57 PM »
id take some brass sheet the same thickness as the butt plate and practice

some charcoal should be hot enough without the blower on 

ive never brazed on my forge but i have done work in copper and brass

eagle24

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2011, 10:03:00 PM »
id take some brass sheet the same thickness as the butt plate and practice

some charcoal should be hot enough without the blower on 

ive never brazed on my forge but i have done work in copper and brass

The butt plate is steel.  I'm brazing it with brass.  I have it tightly pinned, my plan is to heat it, flux it, put some brass filings and small pieces inside the heel, heat it till it flows and then kill the air to the fire and let it cool enough to harden before removing.  I was just curious what color the steel would have to get to before the brass flowed.  Looks like somewhere near the end of the orange spectrum.

Offline Ken G

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2011, 11:22:54 PM »
Greg,
The steel will be bright orange before the brass flows but I recon that would also depend on how pure your brass is too.
Ken  
« Last Edit: July 19, 2011, 11:28:48 PM by Ken G »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2011, 11:33:20 PM »
Assuming a coal forge.
Put brass and flux, Borax, in the cavity and put in the fire "point" of the heal down till the brass flows.
Keep the heat fairly slowly such that the parts deeper in the fire don't over heat before the rest of the joint is hot enough.
When the brass melts it should be done. Don't over heat when the brass just melts its done.
You can use left over scraps of sheet brass etc..
Its not unusual the have unmelted remnants of brass in the cavity of a well brazed buttplate.
A gas forge may require modification of the technique due to the size of the forge.

Dan
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camerl2009

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2011, 12:05:00 AM »
Greg,
The steel will be bright orange before the brass flows but I recon that would also depend on how pure your brass is too.
Ken  

well theres no such thing as pure brass as its a alloy of copper and zinc  :P 

Offline Jay Close

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2011, 04:29:30 PM »
Yes, the steel will be glowing at least orange before the brass flows -- with the understanding that ambient light levels will influence your perception of color. If I haven't done forge brazing in a while, I'm always surprised how hot things really need to be.

Just to round out the discussion because others might find it useful, there are some other points to bear in mind when forge brazing. First, is that the better prepared the joint the better the capillary action pulling the brass into the seam. So, try for a really tight and stable joint. Other things being equal. gravity will effect how the brass pools and flows too. It will find a low spot and puddle there. And finally, the brass will also tend to flow to the areas of higher heat.

Confession time: I have never brazed a buttplate, but I have brazed some much more complex items like the eight or ten parts that make up the body of a box iron (for clothing). It I were brazing a buttplate I'd probably heat slowly with the heel down in the coke bed, then as the brass flows (watch for blue flame coming off the brass) I'd gentle tip the piece left then right to give a bit of a gravity assist. My preference is not to leave it in the fire longer than necessary but to take the piece out as soon as I'm sure the brass has flowed as desired. Let it slowly air cool.

If you've used borax as a flux, it can be very tenacious and hard to clean off. It's water soluble so sometimes just a good 24 hour soak in the slack tube will get most off. Or boil it. 

If you do forge welding, do not tip molten brass into the fire. The conventional wisdom is that it will greatly inhibit your ability to weld until thoroughly cleaned out.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2011, 04:51:54 PM »

Some years ago a friend was repairing a 74 Sharps that Freund had converted to his tipping breechblock.
I was surprised to see that the breechblock was modified by cutting away metal as needed then brazing parts to it to get the proper shape, when properly  finished it was casehardened in colors. The brazing lines showing through on the finished part.

Dan
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eagle24

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2011, 05:35:41 PM »
Well, I got a perfect braze and ruined a good butt plate that took me half a day to forge and several hours filing to get the perfect angle and fit at the joint.  It was good to go, but I decided to heat the tail and tweak it a little more.  Folded it in moving it in the fire and it just went from bad to worse.  Got it all out of whack.

Good news is that I forged another one and almost got the joint filed to fit in less than 2 hours last night.  Will pin and braze it this evening (I hope).  It's better than the first one.  Guess I learned even though I was pretty mad about screwing up the first one.

Offline M Tornichio

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2011, 07:20:57 PM »
Hi Greg,
Don't get too frustrated. I have ruined at least a dozen buttplates. You still learn alot from the failures.

I have been doing this very thing in the evenings this week. I have been brazing with Copper though. It takes much more heat, but one thing that I have learned is that copper allows you to get the part up to a red/ orange heat if needed and will still hold. I can place the comb in the vice and still adjust the back of the plate. I can adjust the curve, twist, any small kinks ect. Brass is easier to braze with though.

Marc

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2011, 09:43:01 PM »
Well, I got a perfect braze and ruined a good butt plate that took me half a day to forge and several hours filing to get the perfect angle and fit at the joint.  It was good to go, but I decided to heat the tail and tweak it a little more.  Folded it in moving it in the fire and it just went from bad to worse.  Got it all out of whack.

Good news is that I forged another one and almost got the joint filed to fit in less than 2 hours last night.  Will pin and braze it this evening (I hope).  It's better than the first one.  Guess I learned even though I was pretty mad about screwing up the first one.

I did one many years ago with a pin that turned out to not be iron or steel, but this was an easy fix compared to yours.

Dan
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eagle24

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2011, 11:04:03 PM »
Hi Greg,
Don't get too frustrated. I have ruined at least a dozen buttplates. You still learn alot from the failures.

I have been doing this very thing in the evenings this week. I have been brazing with Copper though. It takes much more heat, but one thing that I have learned is that copper allows you to get the part up to a red/ orange heat if needed and will still hold. I can place the comb in the vice and still adjust the back of the plate. I can adjust the curve, twist, any small kinks ect. Brass is easier to braze with though.

Marc

Thanks for the encouragement Marc.  Still makes me mad.  I had a good butt plate and couldn't be satisfied.  Had to heat it 1 more time and it was 1 too many.

« Last Edit: July 20, 2011, 11:05:38 PM by GHall »

camerl2009

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2011, 07:44:12 AM »
whats the point of brazing the plate  ???

Online bob in the woods

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2011, 01:14:07 PM »
The originals were made in 2 pieces, and pinned and brazed at the heal

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2011, 04:28:06 PM »
whats the point of brazing the plate  ???

While it was relatively easy to cast brass in a gunshop casting malleable iron was not practical/possible assuming the material was even available. It was impossible to form a sheet iron buttplate from one piece.
Back in 1967-68 John Baird had a pattern for the parts of the brazed sheet iron Hawken buttplate in one of his MB Hawken articles.
The later rifles had cast buttplates, early stuff was shop made.
So most J&S Hawken buttplates and the buttplates on iron mounted eastern rifles were made in two pieces, riveted together then brazed at the joint.

Dan
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 04:39:28 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline Jay Close

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Re: Question for the blacksmiths on here
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2011, 11:02:02 PM »
Well, I got a perfect braze and ruined a good butt plate that took me half a day to forge and several hours filing to get the perfect angle and fit at the joint.  It was good to go, but I decided to heat the tail and tweak it a little more.  Folded it in moving it in the fire and it just went from bad to worse.  Got it all out of whack.

Good news is that I forged another one and almost got the joint filed to fit in less than 2 hours last night.  Will pin and braze it this evening (I hope).  It's better than the first one.  Guess I learned even though I was pretty mad about screwing up the first one.

GHall: congratulations! Think about this for a moment. You went from "several hours" to get a proper fit, to almost finishing in under two hours!!!! That shows an astonishing level of learning and a commendable increase in confidence with just one "practice piece". That is what this is all about: learning by doing, developing the confidence and eye judgement to proceed in a workmanlike manner. You will never approach similar projects in the same way. Again, congratulations!