Author Topic: W Greener on Maple stain (Read 9265 times)

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #1 on:** July 24, 2011, 09:39:03 AM »

Sir,

Hmmm, that's all very interesting, but has anyone attempted to emulate the process? Is the soot on the stock surface an important aspect of the method? Kinda seems like the rustoleum paint thing. Maybe it's the combination of the heat and the char.

My luck the stock catches fire...

Best regards,
Albert “Yes, I am still in Afghanistan!” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Range Reviews: Recreating the 18th Century Powder Horn

Dphariss · « **Reply #2 on:** July 24, 2011, 05:13:37 PM »

Quote from: Albert "Afghanus" Rasch on July 24, 2011, 09:39:03 AM

Sir,

Hmmm, that's all very interesting, but has anyone attempted to emulate the process? Is the soot on the stock surface an important aspect of the method? Kinda seems like the rustoleum paint thing. Maybe it's the combination of the heat and the char.

My luck the stock catches fire...

Best regards,
Albert “Yes, I am still in Afghanistan!” Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
The Range Reviews: Recreating the 18th Century Powder Horn

I put in in here for comment. I have no idea why he would do it this way but there are a lot of somewhat strange things found in books. Such as "curing" an oil finish by smearing it with chassis grease (Gunsmith Kinks).
He also uses raw linseed oil then states it can be top coated with varnish or other finish.
Dan

Ky-Flinter · « **Reply #3 on:** July 24, 2011, 07:33:30 PM »

Dan,

Interesting. Thanks for posting it. What book is this from? Did you scan it or is it available electronically?

Some observations:

Equal parts acid and iron filings. Wow!

"... then lay on a slight coat of the oil and alkanut root." Greener writes "...the oil...". Sounds like he is referring to something specific. Does he mention anything about preparing "the oil and alkanut root" elsewhere in the text?

doug · « **Reply #4 on:** July 25, 2011, 01:30:42 AM »

It sounds like a slight variation of the basic nitric acid / steel wool method you will find in Foxfire 5 amongst other places. I have used it 3 or 4 times and I don't add any oil, but I do heat the wood up over the large element on the stove. The maple goes from sort of washed out coke to a dark reddish black/brown. Then a light sanding and finish according to your preferences. The reddish tinge is lost after a week or two and that is probably why Greener added some alkanet root

cheers Doug

Dphariss · « **Reply #5 on:** July 25, 2011, 11:32:13 PM »

Quote from: doug on July 25, 2011, 01:30:42 AM

It sounds like a slight variation of the basic nitric acid / steel wool method you will find in Foxfire 5 amongst other places. I have used it 3 or 4 times and I don't add any oil, but I do heat the wood up over the large element on the stove. The maple goes from sort of washed out coke to a dark reddish black/brown. Then a light sanding and finish according to your preferences. The reddish tinge is lost after a week or two and that is probably why Greener added some alkanet root

cheers Doug

Who's stain did you use and as it neutralized?
Stains made with Nitric adulterated with Hydrochloric will often change color or even give a muddy look immediately. Good AF is virtually color fast so long as its fully converted and neutralized.
These photos were taken outdoors about 4 years apart. One on an overcast day the other in direct sun, its not overcast today. The color is the same near as I can tell even though the rifle has been used pretty extensively.
I shoot a match every month with it and hunt with it as well.

But as with many things related to shop practice there is a certain amount of "your mileage may vary" involved.
I seem to get very consistent color from AF since I started making my own. The store bought stuff I have used is not as good, making for a browner stock but it is made with adulterated acid.

Like this

This pistol is noticeably browner now. But it was done about 10 years back with commercial stain.
I should take a photo of it too but I have to go work on a percussion to flint conversion.
Dan

eagle24 · « **Reply #6 on:** July 25, 2011, 11:43:04 PM »

Couple of thoughts/questions on homebrewed AF:

1. What are the opinions of whether the type steel added to the nitric acid affects the color achieved by the stain. (steel wool, mild steel filings, wrought iron, etc.)
2. I used steel wool in the batch I made for my rifle (over a year ago) and added it until no more reaction would occur. Was the acid depleted completely?
3. I stored what was left in a dark wine bottle with a rubber stopper. After 18 months or so, is it still good to use on another stock?

Bill of the 45th · « **Reply #7 on:** July 26, 2011, 12:21:27 AM »

Greg, the iron in the mix may slightly affect the color, but more variable is the wood stained. Unless it's from the same tree, no two stocks will be the same color. Each stock will vary by the amount of sugars, and tannins in the wood. Across maples, it should be close, as it will across ash, and so on. You might try adding some more steel, to see if you still get a reaction, but it's probably used up, though still acidic as far as PH, so you should still neutralize. I like ammonia over baking soda. Last you mix should still be OK, but may need to be strained of sediment.

Bill

Dphariss · « **Reply #8 on:** July 26, 2011, 04:29:42 AM »

Quote from: GHall on July 25, 2011, 11:43:04 PM

Couple of thoughts/questions on homebrewed AF:

1. What are the opinions of whether the type steel added to the nitric acid affects the color achieved by the stain. (steel wool, mild steel filings, wrought iron, etc.)
2. I used steel wool in the batch I made for my rifle (over a year ago) and added it until no more reaction would occur. Was the acid depleted completely?
3. I stored what was left in a dark wine bottle with a rubber stopper. After 18 months or so, is it still good to use on another stock?

Nails, steel wool or old wagon tire, all the same color on the same maple.
BUT using the dregs will give a different color maybe more yellowish? Did not like it so I have not retested and now near a year old the dregs might be different?. I use the settled stain that is not cloudy.
Have no idea about acidity. I made some that was completely depleted and did not like the color, added some acid got better. Another in our guild had the same experience. But another guild member did tests on multiple pieces of maple from different blanks as I recall using shop made AF stain and that made from ferric nitrate crystals and the colors were identical. Its impossible to tell one from the other unless looking at the writing on the back.

I don't think age is a factor. The iron is the stain and its not likely to change.

Dan

doug · « **Reply #9 on:** July 27, 2011, 01:18:34 AM »

Quote from: Dphariss on July 25, 2011, 11:32:13 PM

Who's stain did you use and as it neutralized?

I made my own. Cut 95% nitric down to about 30% and added steel wool until it would not accept any more. Make sure you do it outside and stay up wind of the bottle because the vapours are pretty corrosive. The stain was neutralized to the extent that it would not react any further with steel wool.

cheers Doug

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #10 on:** July 27, 2011, 07:32:36 AM »

Fellows,

I am a little uncertain. If you use an acidic compound on your wood, don't you ALWAYS have to neutralize it or risk the wood decomposing?

Now please excuse my ignorance, but what remains (iron oxide molecules and what?) after the iron oxide dissolves in the Nitric acid?
Essentially, the solution is only there to "carry" the iron oxide molecules into the wood correct?
Last what is the best way to neutralize the acids regardless of composition (Vinigar, HCL, FeCl, Nitric Acid?

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
Wild Pigs: Not Tough Enough to Face Ol' King Coal

Dphariss · « **Reply #11 on:** July 28, 2011, 05:47:36 AM »

Quote from: Albert "Afghanus" Rasch on July 27, 2011, 07:32:36 AM

Fellows,

I am a little uncertain. If you use an acidic compound on your wood, don't you ALWAYS have to neutralize it or risk the wood decomposing?

Now please excuse my ignorance, but what remains (iron oxide molecules and what?) after the iron oxide dissolves in the Nitric acid?
Essentially, the solution is only there to "carry" the iron oxide molecules into the wood correct?
Last what is the best way to neutralize the acids regardless of composition (Vinigar, HCL, FeCl, Nitric Acid?

Regards,
Albert A Rasch
The Rasch Outdoor Chronicles
Wild Pigs: Not Tough Enough to Face Ol' King Coal

I always do.
But ferric nitrate crystals may be close enough to "base" that its not needed.
This I have no information on.
I suppose putting a few drops on a plate with some baking soda might tell.

Dan

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #12 on:** July 28, 2011, 06:12:48 AM »

Albert, to neutralize an acid, you must lay on a base, such as ammonia, or baking soda. I think the acid is al but depleted in the reaction with the iron, and does not have much strength. A wash with ammonia would take care of it. I haven't found any acidity in ferric nitrate crystals when dissolved in water to a super saturated solution. But maybe I'm blind. I know I'm deef!

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #13 on:** July 28, 2011, 06:40:36 AM »

Thansk fellows!

Appreciate the information.

Albert

Fred_Dwyer · « **Reply #14 on:** July 28, 2011, 04:58:47 PM »

Dphariss, duct tape? do I see duct tape on those rifles?
uhhhh, why the duct tape?

Rasch Chronicles · « **Reply #15 on:** July 28, 2011, 06:29:22 PM »

That's not duct tape! LOL!

It's the swivel breech itself. You're talking about the part that's right in front of the hammer in the picture right? Above and below the two screws. It does kinda look like duct tape doesn't it...

Albert

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** July 28, 2011, 07:31:00 PM »

Fred - duct tape??? - one of us must have a vision problem. Perhaps it's your monitor?

Dphariss · « **Reply #17 on:** July 28, 2011, 09:34:06 PM »

Engraving the duct tape is the hard part.

Dan

Daryl · « **Reply #18 on:** July 29, 2011, 01:54:48 AM »

Pobably definition on the monitor. My last one (1st 20") was bad for that. I'd be complaining about something looking weird and no one else was seeing what I saw. A new monitor was great, then a new 1 gig graphics card wow- what a difference.

Fred_Dwyer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 29, 2011, 02:34:40 PM »

Perhaps it's your monitor?

Guess so. Once I saved the pix and opened with a viewer that I could zoom a bit I see it now.

Daryl · « **Reply #20 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:16:25 PM »

You can also enlarge or shrink by holding down the Ctrl button with finger and pressing either - or = key. Works on my computer, but not all, apparently. RB brought that up a while back - works well.

Fred_Dwyer · « **Reply #21 on:** July 29, 2011, 05:26:40 PM »

Quote

holding down the Ctrl button with finger and pressing either - or = key.

Way cool, thanks!

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Author Topic: W Greener on Maple stain (Read 9265 times)

Rasch Chronicles

doug

eagle24

doug

Rasch Chronicles

Rasch Chronicles

Fred_Dwyer

Rasch Chronicles

Daryl

Daryl

Fred_Dwyer

Daryl

Fred_Dwyer